Voltage fluctuations in the 240V network and acceptable standards

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#91 13328332 21 Feb 2014 11:25

Anonymous Anonymous

Anonymous

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Post #91
13328332 21 Feb 2014 11:25

Proving is not easy at all.
Even being honest about it on the part of the supplier.
The guy in the switchgear went to zero.
Why should the supplier pay like the customer tinkered?
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#92 13329147 21 Feb 2014 16:01

Anonymous Anonymous

Anonymous

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Post #92
13329147 21 Feb 2014 16:01

It's already word against word, but if the voltage deviates by e.g. 17% it is not necessarily the fault of a loose 'zero' in the switchgear.

Added after 12 [minutes]:

TyPeczek wrote:

jojo95 wrote:
It's one thing to find fault, it's another to prove that the power company is at fault. When writing an engineering paper on power quality, I used an interesting recorder of voltage parameters from the grid. It was the FLUKE VR1710. The evaluation of the parameters is based on the 50160 standard, which specifies the permissible deviations, frequencies, voltages and harmonic content.
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I do not see any anomalies in the graph you provided.

The graph is an example and you have rightly pointed out that there are no anomalies in it, in general during the period of the whole power quality test in the studio I did not register any unacceptable deviations of the parameters. Here, as an example, I can throw in a photo of the distorted voltage with harmonics, by the way of irregularities.
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#93 13329244 21 Feb 2014 16:21

zbich70 zbich70

Level 43

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Post #93
13329244 21 Feb 2014 16:21

jojo95 wrote:
This is a word against the word, but if the voltage is deviated by, for example, 17%, it is not necessarily the fault of a loose "zero" in the switchgear.

Why not necessarily? With a break in N, the phase voltage may vary from 0 to 400V. That's more than 17%
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#94 13329265 21 Feb 2014 16:47

Anonymous Anonymous

Anonymous

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Post #94
13329265 21 Feb 2014 16:47

soadfan wrote:
Dude +/- 10% and yes, but in Poland the voltage is 230 volts.

Here, I do not fully agree with this provision, as the standard specifies it a bit differently.
Namely: for normal operating conditions, ignoring scheduled power outages and short-circuits, during each week, 95% of the group of 10-minute average RMS values of the supply voltage should not differ from the rated voltage Un by more than 10%, and 100% from the above of the mentioned group should be in the range of Un +10% / - 15%.

Added after 3 [minutes]:

zbich70 wrote:

jojo95 wrote:
This is a word against the word, but if the voltage is deviated by, for example, 17%, it is not necessarily the fault of a loose "zero" in the switchgear.

Why not necessarily? With a break in N, the phase voltage may vary from 0 to 400V. That's more than 17%

It is likely, but not a lot. As a rule, when you loosen the "zero", it will be a value closer to 400 V. The 17% that I gave here was a deviation due to the supplier's fault, which exceeds the acceptable deviation contained in the standard.

Added after 13 [minutes]:

Indeed, there may be cases where this voltage, due to a loosened "zero", will be within the range from 0 to 400 V, but I am not talking about considering this type of damage, because it depends on many factors and it may as well be about it calmly open a new discussion, and that's not the point.

I meant more about the case when one of the parameters included in the standard has an unacceptable deviation due to the fault of the energy supplier. So how can we accuse an energy supplier of poor energy quality if our installation is down? Therefore, in order to prove anything to the supplier, we must be 100% sure of the correct condition of the installation, and secondly, constantly monitor the parameters responsible for quality.
#95 13329336 21 Feb 2014 16:52

zbich70 zbich70

Level 43

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Post #95
13329336 21 Feb 2014 16:52

My friend jojo95 , I suggest an experiment - loosen the "zero" in the switchboard and connect the oven for one phase, computer for the other, measure the voltage.

Now imagine that the N has loosened not in the switchgear but at the terminal (supplier). Give reasons for any differences.
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#96 13329388 21 Feb 2014 18:02

Anonymous Anonymous

Anonymous

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Post #96
13329388 21 Feb 2014 18:02

There is only one thing that worries me, because if no one is required to constantly monitor and record the parameters of electricity quality, how can the average Kowalski notice and report that the harmonic content in his electrical "socket" exceeds the acceptable standards? And then he could apply for a discount or, for example, partial exemption from the fee, because the power plant in the contract undertakes to provide electricity of a strictly defined quality.

Added after 4 [minutes]:

zbich70 wrote:
My friend jojo95 , I suggest an experiment - loosen the "zero" in the switchboard and connect the oven for one phase, computer for the other, measure the voltage.

Now imagine that the N has loosened not in the switchgear but at the terminal (supplier). Give reasons for any differences.

The difference is obvious, in the switchgear it is the user's fault and the supplier will not pay for the damage, if the fault lies with the supplier and you prove it to him, he should cover the costs of repair and start-up, because the contract has clearly written conditions for the supply of energy, including permissible deviations of parameters . And this at this point should not be of concern to the user, for what reason he has 400 V in the sockets if the fault is not on his side.

Added after 12 [minutes]:

zbich70 wrote:
My friend jojo95 , I suggest an experiment - loosen the "zero" in the switchboard and connect the oven for one phase, computer for the other, measure the voltage.

Now imagine that the N has loosened not in the switchgear but at the terminal (supplier). Give reasons for any differences.

Assuming that the computer has a much lower power than the oven, the computer's power supply will fry in a few seconds, but the question is not whether something will be damaged in this case (because I rather assume it is), but by whose fault and how to prove it.

Added after 41 [minutes]:

zbich70 wrote:
My friend jojo95 , I suggest an experiment - loosen the "zero" in the switchboard and connect the oven for one phase, computer for the other, measure the voltage.

Now imagine that the N has loosened not in the switchgear but at the terminal (supplier). Give reasons for any differences.

Here all you need is a piece of paper and a pen, I don't have to loosen "zero" to get to know the effects empirically. Theoretical calculations, assuming that the oven has 3kW, and the computer's power supply is 450W, and the N or PEN wire is completely "loosened" or "burned", it follows that the voltage drop on the oven will be approx. 52V, while on the computer power supply it will be approx. 348V. So the oven is likely to survive, the power supply is unlikely to survive. Either way, both voltages are against the standard, but the question of proving the fault remains with the supplier.
#97 17110167 17 Mar 2018 20:45

rstlen29 rstlen29

Company Account
Level 22

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Post #97
17110167 17 Mar 2018 20:45

Hello
I will join the discussion of the parameters of the 230 / 400V power network because I am very interested in whether the situation at the author of this topic has improved or worsened despite the passing period of 4 years.
Was there an answer or a reason for the situation that arose then, if it has been corrected.
I can send my observations on this subject as a message PW, Priv, to all people interested in the knowledge and experience gained on this subject with ZE

PS. I allowed myself to change and write correctly the error in the subject should be 230 / 400V
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#98 17110867 18 Mar 2018 08:54

CYRUS2 CYRUS2

Level 43

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Post #98
17110867 18 Mar 2018 08:54

Write a PM to the author of the topic.
#99 17110891 18 Mar 2018 09:11

Topolski Mirosław Topolski Mirosław

Moderator of Electrical engineering

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Post #99
17110891 18 Mar 2018 09:11

rstlen29 wrote:

I can send my observations on this subject as a message PW, Priv, to all people interested in the knowledge and experience gained on this subject with ZE

You can share this knowledge here so that those who encounter a similar problem can benefit from it - after all, that's why we write here.
#100 17111711 18 Mar 2018 15:16

rstlen29 rstlen29

Company Account
Level 22

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Post #100
17111711 18 Mar 2018 15:16

PS
User opinion:
==========
Museum.
Is it so difficult to start a new topic?
==========
It is here that you can see that an anonymous report to the moderator is more effective and faster than 4 years of progress in the energy industry from an earlier era than the exhibits in the museum

"and if they encounter a similar problem, they could use it - after all, that's what we're writing for"

I fully understand the condition of the power network at its various points, especially on aluminum cables from 50 years ago, it puts a lot to be desired both by the user - the recipient and the seller - the energy supplier
The operator is responsible for faults before the border of the parties, often not even in front of the meter, because the WLZ connector is on the block from the overhead line is a problem for the residents in the block or the building manager.
This raises the question of who will be interested in the condition of the wires nowadays, since the current flows and everything is fine, but until someone starts to research or "modernize his section" the state is just a museum because it becomes a monument after 25 years.

I wanted to ask on the forum of this topic if anyone writing here noticed an improvement in the last 4 years, for example, improvement in the quality of electricity if he has a new installation in a newly built house with a new cable line from the operator.
#101 17111974 18 Mar 2018 17:19

CYRUS2 CYRUS2

Level 43

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Post #101
17111974 18 Mar 2018 17:19

rstlen29 wrote:
PS
User opinion:
==========
Museum.
Is it so hard to start a new topic?
It's easy, so let a colleague assume such a topic.
Even a colleague did not present his problem.
#102 21544416 09 May 2025 19:30

ljakubiecxd ljakubiecxd

Level 1

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Post #102
21544416 09 May 2025 19:30

According to the standards, the voltage can vary ±10% from 230 volts, i.e. from 207 volts to 253 volts. You have to show an average below or above the norm, which is the sum of the voltage from the three phases divided by 3. I've been kicking myself with Tauron for a while because I get too low in the evening and too high during the day and the photovoltaic shuts down. Generally you will have an old trafo that you have to manually raise or lower, hence the fluctuations. What I can suggest, as this is what I have, is to apply to the operator for a net metering. It costs £200, they put a measuring device on the connection for 7 days and record the voltage dips and rises, then you get a report of those measurements, and what happens next I don't know because they only measure the second day.

Moderated By ArturAVS:
3.1.19. Publishing entries in archive discussions. Archived discussions are defined as discussions marked by the Service Provider as: Archive Topic or Archive Thread.

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#103 21544477 09 May 2025 20:21

zbich70 zbich70

Level 43

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Post #103
21544477 09 May 2025 20:21

ljakubiecxd wrote:
What can I suggest
I don't know if you noticed, but you are writing in a topic from seven years ago.
Relative to your last post.
Because the source post is now eleven years old.
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Topic summary

The discussion addresses voltage fluctuations observed in a 230/400V low-voltage network, with measured phase voltages ranging from approximately 195V to 225V, occasionally dropping to around 200V. According to applicable standards and EU regulations, voltage deviations of +10% to -15% from the nominal 230V are generally acceptable, meaning voltages between 195.5V and 253V fall within tolerance. Fluctuations can be caused by factors such as load changes, transformer aging, or network configuration, including new housing estate connections without completed transformer installations. Measurement accuracy and equipment limitations were considered, with suggestions to use devices like oscilloscopes with memory or network analyzers for detailed voltage quality monitoring. The importance of measuring at the ownership boundary to attribute responsibility was emphasized. Voltage dips may cause dimming of lighting and slower operation of appliances but typically do not damage CE-marked equipment designed to withstand short-term voltage variations up to 253V. Overvoltage protection devices and mains voltage controllers can mitigate transient spikes, though some impulses may still reach connected devices. Collective complaints and persistence in communication with energy suppliers are recommended for resolution. The discussion also touched on the impact of voltage levels on energy losses and consumption, noting that higher voltages reduce current and transmission losses, while low voltages may increase losses and affect device performance. Proving supplier fault for damages requires detailed, continuous voltage monitoring, often with specialized equipment such as the FLUKE VR1710 or Tektronix oscilloscopes. The overall consensus is that the observed voltage levels, while at the lower end of the acceptable range, are within regulatory limits, and that infrastructure upgrades like transformer replacement may be necessary for long-term improvement.
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