Elektroda.com
Elektroda.com
X

Search our partners

Find the latest content on electronic components. Datasheets.com
Elektroda.com

Electric installation in the floor

elektronikq 48279 46
This content has been translated flag-pl » flag-en View the original version here.
  • #31
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    Personally, I am opposed to this method.
    It is practically neither cheaper nor easier for the contractor and, above all, it serves no purpose.
    Of course, there are situations when it cannot be avoided (mentioned earlier by Łukasz).



    However, the main drawback is that, despite the expenses incurred, it is a very emergency system.
    Perhaps it will work for single-family buildings, but it will definitely not work for multi-family buildings.
    The reason for this is the technical culture of other performers.
    A building with a few cages and about a hundred apartments cannot be looked after by an electrician or a construction manager.
    The floor with the pipes arranged on it looks like a mess after the plasterers have passed.
    And yet she will be "invaded" by plumbers and those who are laying polystyrene.
    After practically each of these stages, the insulation resistance should be measured.
    The visual inspection itself is no guarantee that the insulation of the wires has not been damaged.
    And after the floor has been made, there is no way to replace the wires that were previously pulled into the pipe.
    You want to use it this way, but do not write that it is the best and cheapest solution.
    I will remain faithful to tradition, although I can see an open gate in the increasingly used suspended ceilings.

    And the question of whether a better rigid or flexible pipe is like a question addressed to a convict whether he prefers silk or hemp rope.
  • #32
    elektronikq
    Level 24  
    Jack wrote:
    This is why there are selection tables for the arrangement of the cable to provide the long-term permissible current that the cable will withstand. And there is no polystyrene covered wire in the standard. And what this current should be. Here colleague Darom made the calculations.

    Exactly. How did he make these calculations, and where did he get this law of Om?
    Jack wrote:
    The circuit is dedicated to a specific receiver or a group of receivers, it can be permanently connected to the receiver, terminated with a special socket, a socket of a different color or by using an appropriate key as in the drawing below.

    I understand, my friend knows the Polish reality. The owner will tell you that you will make a socket for a lamp here and then connect a heater or iron and the problem is because the socket does not work. Such, in my opinion, for industry or larger offices. In a normal apartment, in my opinion, you have to be foolproof, just like in automation. This is by no means my opinion.
    Jack wrote:
    I don't think, buddy, the techniques can be so refined that it turns out to be the same. And the cables from the floor must also be led to junction boxes. Rather, it is about laziness and convenience to do it quickly and quickly, even at the expense of the quality of workmanship and breaking the principles of good installation practice.

    I agree. But probably calling an electrician who does such a method cannot be called laziness. I know everyone wants to do fast and earn money.
    In my opinion, the floor method is much faster.
    Jack wrote:
    Where are we going to leave on the wall? It's not the same, at least there is some conduit cooled from the floor of the wall. And this arrangement can be found in the standard and the permissible load current is given.

    You can argue for so long and so the money and savings will win. The rat race is the most important thing. That's what this business is all about.


    If he leaves a colleague on the floor, the colleague does not know what will happen to these wires. If these wires hang on the wall, 99.9% will be covered with plaster. What then, if the wires in the floor are covered with polystyrene, they will also throw a floor covering. The fault will probably be on the electrician's side anyway. If the client goes to court, who will the court find guilty?

    Thank you buddy Jack for participating in the discussion. Greetings.

    My friend elpapiotr
    This is a colleague's job? Does a colleague cover these tubes with something or does he leave them in the same way as shown in the photo?

    Hello friend kkas12 . My colleague, we know that the pipes can be mechanically damaged, but as my colleague rightly pointed out in a multi-family building, there is a greater risk of damage to the installation in the floor and the subsequent painful consequences of such a failure. A colleague will not always use a tray and a suspended ceiling.
    kkas12 wrote:
    You want to use it this way, but do not write that it is the best and cheapest solution.

    Colleagues think the best solution is to run the wires on the wall?
    We are talking about housing.

    Greetings to users.
  • #33
    Łukasz-O
    Admin of electroenergetics
    I can see that the topic of installations made under the floor has been controversial among electricians for many years.
    Some are afraid of them, others hate it and consider it a lack of art, for others it is still a novelty. There are also those who use it.
    I will not hide that I run to the floor if I can.

    I dissociate myself from the installation shown in the film, its only advantage - it looks nice. Super equipment with a laser and perfect polystyrene grooves, beautifully distributed in the past, are to attract an unaware customer. Oh ... as they do, they even filled the cavities under the polystyrene with foam. Unfortunately, this is how it works for the client.
    It is a time bomb that can take revenge - just like in the cases described by colleagues: Jack and Darom.

    However, I do not think that a well-made installation under the floor should be incompatible with the art or worse than the traditional one. Properly made such installation is no different from the traditional one. I am almost sure that the conduit in the conduit laid on the ceiling under the floor gives off heat better than the same conduit in the conduit in the plasterboard wall, covered with mineral wool and a double board. Currently, most houses have such walls and somehow it does not bother anyone.
    The conduit is placed directly on the ceiling and is perfectly cooled from below. Ceilings are always cold. The space on the side and top with sand between the polystyrene boards gives it even better conditions.
    I also disagree with the idea that there is always an alternative to distributing the installation in the floor. There are cases when you can't. I don't want to go into details, but the current trends and visions of designers and architects are really surprising. I know that not all colleagues have contact with it and it is difficult for them to understand. It's a bit different in industry.
    Of course, it is known that some of the installations will go to the walls or ceiling anyway, it is inevitable.
    I know more than 15-year-old multi-family buildings where all power circuits were led under the floor, including the lines supplying the apartments with ZELPs. Nothing bad is happening.
    Sure, everything can be damaged at the construction site, but there is probably an institution such as a manager or a supervision inspector?
    Certainly, no one will damage such an installation while hanging the family photo on the wall. And that's a plus ;)

    A colleague of electronics is afraid of a spout :D Not at all necessary. The spout is so thick that it will not break 4-8 cm. It is often reinforced with a reinforcement mesh.
    There are different spouts, it can be a very dense mass, something like poppy seed mass for dough ;) It smoothes mechanically.
    The foil separating the foamed polystyrene from the screed is to seal the penetration of moisture from the settling mass into the insulation and the ceiling. Firstly, it is important in the setting process, and secondly, the absorbed moisture below the insulation would not be able to escape. As a result, the later new plank may start to stand up.
    The foil also acts as a slide between the spout and the insulation.
    Best if you can read about screeds, insulation and ceilings. This is not a topic for electricians.
  • #34
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    The era of cables laid directly on the walls is gone forever.
    Today's technologies as well as the materials and solutions used force the laying of cables in furrows.
    They will also be forced by suspended ceilings, which are more and more often used.
    So if there will be furrows, can you also try pipes?

    And do not write that what is laid on the floor is installation in pipes.
    The installation in the pipes begins with the laying of the pipes.
    The cables are pulled in later.
    They can also be replaced in some time (invalid reason).
    There is no question of it here, because the pipe is first pulled over the cable and then laid.
  • #35
    czolo81
    Level 17  
    Hello, when arranging such an installation, I use PVC cable trays. At the end, the grilles are additionally fastened with bands so that the construction worker would have to make some effort to break it. For the floor for quick assembly.
  • #36
    Łukasz-O
    Admin of electroenergetics
    I think you cannot stick to these furrows so rigidly and forget to lay the wires directly on the walls. Consider, for example, a partition wall made of 5 cm wide blocks. We will not conquer too much, everything will fall on the head and this will be the end. The same is true of the load-bearing or the great album.
    Each construction site is different, you have to look for solutions every time. Sometimes, as you write, it is better to escape into a suspended ceiling and furrows, and other times onto walls or the floor. There is no ideal and universal method in our latitude.


    Unless every sensible installer is aware that the pipes in this case only serve as covers. There is no typical pipe installation here.
    I know that you do not prefer such a solution because it contradicts the rules of a typical installation in pipes, which we can remove at any time and replace with another one.
    Here, I am able to agree with you on one condition that the entire installation in the facility is made in pipes and individual Dy. Then it makes sense. If the investor wishes it, I do not see the slightest problem.
    In the case when some of them are in the plaster, and some in the pipes, in my opinion it is pointless. 50% art for art. There might not be any pipes under the floor as well. They are, because we are safe and sound and we do not trust men with wheelbarrows.
  • #37
    kasprzyk
    Electrician specialist
    fighter wrote:
    After entering the construction site of the first better team from screeds or plasters or some other, these beautiful white tubes that look so beautiful when stepped on are cracked and damaged.

    In my opinion, the use of a conduit or a hard corrugated tube is much better, everyone who has such a broken white tube or saw it after changing temperatures knows what's going on.


    Well, we are rather talking about other carriers of these cables. The PVC pipes I deal with are so flexible that they do not break, but are bent, and in my opinion it is the best medium for laying cables in this way. "Hard" conduit, as you called it, is not suitable for such works, it breaks like polystyrene, inserting wires into it is much more labor-consuming compared to PVC pipes.
    Perhaps we use other producers, but if your conduit is so strong, how much is its meter, because you don't use blue arota?
  • #38
    djlukas
    Level 27  
    I fully agree with my colleague Łukasz-O. Recently and now I have been making a house where it would not be possible without the Floor. A huge number of windows right up to the floor and various circuits invented by the investor. If I wanted to run these wires over the window, I don't know if I would have enough space :) Not to mention the installation of the curtain rod and the number of additional meters of cables. As for the breakdowns, I already had a few just by drilling in the wall (plumber, mounting a chandelier, cabinets, etc.). not step on the wires
  • #39
    tomi.k
    Level 8  
    Colleagues, and how is the issue of heat dissipation through the ceiling, if we also use underfloor heating in a given investment? While on the ground floors, 20 cm of polystyrene is currently used, and the cable lying in the conduit on the concrete lining is separated from the heating pipes by a large layer of insulation (a dozen or so cm), on the floors, with only a few cm of polystyrene, the heating and power layers practically touch each other. And the temperature of heating pipes is several dozen degrees C.
  • #40
    djlukas
    Level 27  
    tomi.k wrote:
    on the floors, with just a few cm of polystyrene, the heating and power layers are practically in contact. And the temperature of heating pipes is several dozen degrees C.


    And your friend heard that the heat always escapes upwards?
  • #41
    kasprzyk
    Electrician specialist
    tomi.k wrote:
    KA temperature of heating pipes is several dozen degrees C.

    with a properly prepared floor covering, it rarely exceeds 35 degrees.
  • #42
    Darom
    Electrician specialist
    djlukas wrote:
    tomi.k wrote:
    on the floors, with just a few cm of polystyrene, the heating and power layers are practically in contact. And the temperature of heating pipes is several dozen degrees C.


    And your friend heard that the heat always escapes upwards?

    Hello
    I have not heard. I know about the convection phenomenon resulting from the difference in the density of warm and cold air. But convection in the ceiling is unlikely to occur.

    kasprzyk wrote:
    tomi.k wrote:
    KA temperature of heating pipes is several dozen degrees C.
    with a properly prepared floor covering, it rarely exceeds 35 degrees.
    It depends where we measure. I would argue that on the pipes themselves, however, it often exceeds - it all depends on the design.

    kisses
    - GIFT-
  • #43
    User removed account
    Level 1  
  • #44
    tomi.k
    Level 8  
    Summarizing? Is the electrical conduit on the ceiling permissible for underfloor heating?
  • #45
    kasprzyk
    Electrician specialist
    With heating installations, like with our electric ones, someone will put 1mm, protect 16A and say that it's good because it works.
    We do not have many days in winter, when the temperature drops below -5 degrees, for this temperature the maximum range of the heating medium is 35 degrees (or maybe 28 degrees is enough). It is known, however, that we should look at the most extreme ranges.
    Maciej - as the thermal image is from today - outside temperature around +5, you have a bit of a screwed up installation, you will burn your feet as it will be -20 outside ;)

    Electric installation in the floor

    Added after 5 [minutes]:

    tomi.k wrote:
    Summarizing? Is the electrical conduit on the ceiling permissible for underfloor heating?


    If you perform both installations correctly, - you will not give the floor heating too rarely, so as not to press 45 degrees there later, you will choose the correct protection for electric wires, there should be no problems.
    However, if you intend to connect a high-power device that will be used continuously or very often - think about a different location of the cables.
  • #46
    Raku025
    Level 8  
    Hello
    in the company where he works, no cables are laid in conduits, they are simply laid on bare concrete, then attached with webbing tape on concrete nails, only internet and tv cables are in the pipes, but only in the floor. I will add that I work in Germany and no one pays attention to it because the insulation may be damaged by plaster or other later works.
  • #47
    polaklbn
    Level 23  
    Raku025 wrote:
    Hello
    in the company where he works, no cables are laid in conduits, they are simply laid on bare concrete, then attached with webbing tape on concrete nails, only internet and tv cables are in the pipes, but only in the floor. I will add that I work in Germany and no one pays attention to it because the insulation may be damaged by plaster or other later works.


    Horror