Electric Floor Installation: Wiring Location, Conduit Capacity, Reliability & Compliance Standards

Well, during the n YT sessions I encountered such a miracle:
Link

Can you do that? Is the wiring location on the wall? It is made, it can be seen reliably, but for example, I do not like the fact that 5 wires are inserted into one conduit. Is this how you install? Does the standard respond to this in some way?

I always run the cables for sockets in the floor. I try to put one wire into the conduit. Sometimes I run two wires in one conduit for double stair switches, but in this case the temperature has no effect.

I think the topic is interesting, so feel free to share your feelings.
Is it better to lay the cable in a conduit or a PVC tube? I see a concept here taken from plumbers.

A conduit or a pipe there is basically only to protect the cable during construction against damage by hordes of passing builders, investors, designers, until the spout is poured out. Later, it basically serves a symbolic function, because it certainly does not allow for any replacement of the cable with this type of arrangement.

I understand that such cables do not affect the condition of the floor? Ie. no cracks appear? Lay the cables in the middle of the rooms or it is better to run them against the walls. No water will appear in the conduit during the pouring out?

I understand that the conduit protects the cables against stresses on the foundations and the floor.

How does the standard relate to this?

elektronikq wrote:

I understand that such cables do not affect the condition of the floor? Ie. no cracks appear?

I can assure you that it is not.

elektronikq wrote:

Lay the cables in the middle of the rooms or it is better to run them against the walls.

I try to 15 cm from the wall, because apparently it is better when laying polystyrene. So to me, several companies that do spouts suggested.
But I also play the middle as if there are too many meters around.

As my colleague Miniax mentioned, forget about replacing such a cable.

Hello colleagues

In such cases, I ask about the long-term load capacity of wires surrounded by polystyrene. And somehow no one is willing to take up this topic.
E.g. here - on ISE also in the thread with the LCLATOS commercial, I only found out that I am a ignoramus. :-)

kisses
- GIFT-

I do not put it in polystyrene, but directly on the board. I try to arrange everything at right angles so that later the polystyrene adheres nicely. I noticed that some polystyrene would still be put on these conduits and some only foil and poured with concrete. The first time I see this advertisement is to cut out in polystyrene and arrange it.

Gentlemen, maybe someone who does this in the floor will show us a design from the designer to make installations in polystyrene?


The company in the film does everything comprehensively, i.e. quickly and cheaply, in polystyrene with water, heating and electricity and everything possible, then they arrange polystyrene and charge for everything; p

Darom wrote:

Hello colleagues

In such cases, I ask about the long-term load capacity of wires surrounded by polystyrene. And somehow no one is willing to take up this topic.

I was waiting for someone new thinking to show up, you could have waited ... Styrofoam and more, because in one conduit the entire bundle ...

Darom wrote:

In such cases, I ask about the long-term load capacity of wires surrounded by polystyrene. And somehow no one is willing to take up this topic.

Because the standard for long-term current carrying capacity of cables does not provide for such a way of laying. And you can't cut data from a table, you have to compare it to something or pin it. And for that, you can always make a mistake and nobody wants to risk it.

You've been working in industry too long, and working too short in housing. You hardly know the imagination of the inhabitants.

Hello

I used to calculate / computer simulation / with some adopted model. YDY3x2.5mm? wire surrounded by a 5cm layer of polystyrene. I don't remember how much long-term load was there, but it was about 7A or 8A (Cu core temperature 70 ° C).
At home, it happens that someone can charge the socket with more electricity.

kisses
- GIFT-

Darom wrote:

YDY3x2.5mm2 cable surrounded by a 5cm layer of polystyrene. I do not remember how much long-term load was there, but it was about 7A or 8A (core temperature Cu 70stC).

Since this was the case in the model (Cu wire temperature), check the ignition temperature of the polystyrene.

Long-term current carrying capacity of power lines and cables () - the effective value of the current that can flow through a cable with specific parameters and external conditions in an unlimited time, which can heat the cable to the limit, allowable temperature without damaging it.

Long-term load capacity of cables depends on many factors. It is influenced by such cable parameters as: conductor cross-section, conductor structure (conductor shape, arrangement and quantity), conductor material (aluminum, copper), and type of insulation. The external conditions that affect the load capacity include: the ambient temperature and the way the cables are laid, which affects the intensity of heat transfer from the cores to the environment. In Poland, in 2000, the long-term load capacity of cables was standardized. The rules for determining the cable load capacity are specified in the PN-IEC 60364-5-523 standard.

It follows from the above that it may or may not matter The question remains open, and as to how much people can burden the installation, there is no limit to creativity. You can replace the fuse with a larger one and it will not disconnect

Darom wrote:

Hello

I used to calculate / computer simulation / with some adopted model. YDY3x2.5mm2 cable surrounded by a 5cm layer of polystyrene. I do not remember how much long-term load was there, but it was about 7A or 8A (core temperature Cu 70stC).
At home, it happens that someone can charge the socket with more electricity.

kisses
- GIFT-

Such a test should be carried out on the existing subfloor and on a properly made underfloor installation. As we know, it is always cold from the ceiling.

What is shown in the film should be clearly nice and attract customers. It has nothing to do with a well-done installation. In addition, it generates costs - equipment and unnecessary material as well as bad heat dissipation.
Under-floor installations are placed directly on the ceilings, only then the polystyrene is decomposed, leaving the channels, which are filled with sand. This is covered with foil and only the spout.



Each circuit should have its own tube, possibly the correspondence and lighting in a given part of the room can be put together (minimal load).
In today's residential installations, where each larger receiver and room has separate circuits, there is no need to consider what loads are unknown. The most important thing is to do it wisely, not to show for a movie and to supply the entire kitchen with one conduit.
The same applies to beautifully stretched installations at right angles with a bundle of wires next to each other. I did this too, until I had to redo several times, because the plasterer did not want to use the mesh.

Unfortunately, there are buildings where only the floor can be used for installations. Recently, I was doing a large living room over 95m where it was not possible to distribute wires along the walls (windows from the floor to the ceiling). Some stair and cross outlets for the switches were located in special islands next to future couches etc. There were 17 lighting lines in total - in one room, each lit on four sides.
The traditional way would be to lean back.

Hello colleague sq3evp.

sq3evp wrote:

Since this was the case in the model (Cu wire temperature), check the ignition temperature of the polystyrene.

Long-term current carrying capacity of power lines and cables () - the effective value of the current that can flow through a cable with specific parameters and external conditions in an unlimited time, which can heat the cable to the limit, allowable temperature without damaging it.

Long-term load capacity of cables depends on many factors. It is influenced by such cable parameters as: conductor cross-section, conductor structure (conductor shape, arrangement and quantity), conductor material (aluminum, copper), and type of insulation. The external conditions that affect the load capacity include: the ambient temperature and the way the cables are laid, which affects the intensity of heat transfer from the cores to the environment. In Poland, in 2000, the long-term load capacity of cables was standardized. The rules for determining the cable load capacity are specified in the PN-IEC 60364-5-523 standard.

It follows from the above that it may or may not matter The question remains open, and as to how much people can burden the installation, there is no limit to creativity. You can replace the fuse with a larger one and it will not disconnect

We consider wrong installation arrangement - propagated by LCLATOS.
I don't really know why my friend wrote his post - probably just to blur the topic. After all, I said that the simulation concerned a specific cable - YDY 3x2.5mm?. The conductors are copper (not, for example, CNT), not square, but round, and the insulation is made of PVC (and not, for example, XLPE) with a maximum operating temperature of 70 ° C. Ambient temperature - in apartments it is usually (20-25) ° C. Placing in the vicinity of polystyrene (?

Darom wrote:

There can be a whole lot of circuits, but it is enough for this one to be loaded with a current of 16A. It is not so difficult to imagine that the temperature of this one YDY 3x2.5mm2 can then rise to 200 ° C, exceeding the maximum operating temperature of the cable and probably the melting point of both polystyrene and PVC (I do not want to check what they are).

kisses
- GIFT-

I do not know how my friend counts - these alleged 200 ° C are for my example and arrangement?
I did not count, but you do a little bit.

Darom wrote:

And how does the self-ignition temperature of polystyrene relate to this (probably higher than 400 ° C), which column says should be taken into account?

- GIFT-

This is what I meant, that the 70 ° C temperature of the cable is not enough to ignite the polystyrene. My only point was that if the temperature of the cable approaches the ignition temperature of polystyrene, we increase the cross-section to lower the temperature of the cable. With such a temperature difference, there is nothing to crush on the copies

But here it is not about ignition of polystyrene, only about the condition of the wire insulation when it is overheated.

Hello

Łukasz-O wrote:

Darom wrote:

There can be a whole lot of circuits, but it is enough for this one to be loaded with a current of 16A. It is not so difficult to imagine that the temperature of this one YDY 3x2.5mm2 can then increase to 200 ° C, exceeding the maximum operating temperature of the cable and probably the melting point of both polystyrene and PVC (I do not want to check what they are) -

I do not know how my friend counts - these alleged 200 ° C are for my example and arrangement?
I did not count, but you do well a bit.

Exactly. And I was not counting - I took the temperature from the "ceiling" .

And seriously, it does not mean that it is unbelievable, on the contrary, it is real - but not, for example, for a colleague (the cable gives heat to the ceiling), but for YouTube (post # 1).

It is enough to apply "Ohm's Law" for thermal circuits

Q = ? * T, where Q is the amount of passing heat, ?-thermal conductivity and T is the temperature difference.

I consider this case when the wire is surrounded by polystyrene and at 8A it heats up to 70 ° C. If the current is doubled to 16A, the amount of heat released will quadruple, so the temperature difference (which at the ambient temperature is 50 ° C) will be 200 ° C. The resulting wire temperature will be 220 ° C.

Of course, this is only an approximation - in fact, for such a wide range of temperatures, "Ohm's Law" is not met, as ? varies slightly with temperature. Besides, the resistance of the conductor will increase, thus increasing the amount of heat generated.

kisses
- GIFT-

Hello to all participants in the discussion and forum.

djlukas wrote:

I do not put it in polystyrene, but directly on the board. I try to arrange everything at right angles so that later the polystyrene adheres nicely. I noticed that some polystyrene would still be put on these conduits and some only foil and poured with concrete.

Exactly, is it correct to put a conduit on the cover and pour concrete on it? Do you need to put some foil on the conduit and then pour it with concrete, something like a trapezoid?

Jack wrote:

Because the standard for long-term current carrying capacity of cables does not provide for such a way of laying. And you can't cut data from a table, you have to compare it to something or pin it. And for what, you can always make a mistake and no one wants to risk it.

Since the standards are in force because they are in regulations and I do not have such a way of arranging it, is something allowed?
On the forum I meet with criticism if something is not normal. Isn't that creating alternative electrics?

Łukasz-O wrote:

What is shown in the film should be clearly nice and attract customers. It has nothing to do with a well-done installation. In addition, it generates costs - equipment and unnecessary material as well as bad heat dissipation.
Under-floor installations are placed directly on the ceilings, only then the polystyrene is decomposed, leaving the channels, which are filled with sand. This is covered with foil and only the spout.

A colleague wrote:

Łukasz-O wrote:

Unfortunately, there are buildings where just installations can be run on the floor.

And then he added:

Łukasz-O wrote:

The traditional way would be to lean back.

How is it finally? Is it possible or not? Because it appears that my friend chose the easier path.
Peshle in the sand? Will there be no cracks later on the spout?
Buddy Łukasz, are these photos your job?

Buddy Darom, no special calculations are needed here. An increase in temperature even above 70 C for YDYp in a short time is deadly and the installation is not done for a year, but only for a dozen or so years. And then what? Tear off the floor?
Buddy Darom in what did you do the calculations? At FEMM?

Buddy Darom where did you get the Oma law for thermal circuits?

Thank you for your interest in the topic.

elektronikq wrote:

Peshle in the sand? Will there be no cracks later on the spout?
Buddy Łukasz, are these photos your job?

What does the spout have to do with it? The spout is at the top.

retrofood wrote:

What does the spout have to do with it? The spout is at the top.

I'm not a builder so I ask. Something done on unstable ground "sits" and sometimes breaks. Why this sand? Can not be completely poured with concrete?

What is your attitude towards making this type of installation, since the standard does not cover this scope and the electricians are told to hang on to it. This is because it is creating an alternative electrician to make it more convenient. Because let's face it, laying the wires on the wall and floor is a big difference in time.

Greetings.

You clung to this standard and cling to the hem of a mom's skirt. Well, there is no standard that prohibits laying cables in the floor, so get the alternative electrical engineering out of your head. The condition, however, is to use the brain, because the tables do provide the long-term load capacity of the cables in different ways of laying, but I have not yet seen one that includes five different multi-strand cables in one conduit, in addition surrounded by polystyrene. It is this problem that requires reflection and analysis. What powers will be transmitted through individual wires, maybe wires should be moved away from each other, or we have a chance to dissipate this heat somehow ...
And don't bother with cracking the floor. The floor is on polystyrene and the wires are shown under the polystyrene. Why are you flooring for the seventeenth time? Are you gonna spill her? It's not your business! T. y you only have to anticipate all the dangers and risks associated with this way of wiring. Only and so much!

elektronikq wrote:

Since the standards are in force because they are in regulations and I do not have such a way of arranging it, is something allowed?
On the forum I meet with criticism when something is not normal. Isn't that creating alternative electrics?

Since my colleague called me to the board, I will answer that the standards are for voluntary use - this is the case in the entire European Union, why should it be different in Poland.
Standards are technical knowledge resulting from practice, experience, research and hundreds of hours of work from various European committees.
And why did they not foresee such cable arrangement in their studies?
Probably because it is not very profitable in relation to the conductor cross-section - the permissible load capacity for insulation protection. An electrician will never know what the user connects to a socket powered by such a circuit, because these are general-purpose sockets and not a circuit dedicated to a specific low-power receiver. There are 10 sockets on the circuit and both RTV receivers and electric heaters can be connected there. It is hard to predict. Built houses are more and more energy-efficient, and perhaps no one will ever connect an electric heater or other load of greater power to the general circuits. But that's just a guess.
If something is not in the standard, then apparently in this topic there is no specific knowledge supported by experience to take it into account and recommend it for use. And alternative electrical engineering is breaking the rules of technical knowledge or transforming it into your own fashion.
So this is not the way dear colleague.

retrofood wrote:

You clung to this standard and cling to the hem of a mom's skirt. Well, there is no standard that prohibits laying cables in the floor, so get the alternative electrical engineering out of your head.

I do not stick to the standards. And you, my friend, and especially Kkas12, you hold on to her like that. I'm not going to get into verbal quarrels but this is what I conclude from the posts you write. So don't be offended because that's not the point.

retrofood wrote:

The condition, however, is to use the brain, because the tables do provide the long-term load capacity of the cables in different ways of laying, but I have not yet seen one that includes five different multi-strand cables in one conduit, in addition surrounded by polystyrene. It is this problem that requires reflection and analysis. What powers will be transmitted through individual wires, maybe wires should be moved away from each other, or we have a chance to dissipate this heat somehow ...

I noticed this 1 post, my friend.

retrofood wrote:

And don't bother with cracking the floor. The floor is on polystyrene and the wires are shown under the polystyrene. Why are you flooring for the seventeenth time? Are you gonna spill her? It's not your business! You only have to anticipate all the dangers and risks associated with this way of wiring. Only and so much!

Buddy, calmer, why are you nervous? I understand, I ask those who do it and have experience in it, because I have never done it once. I was just interested in the movie and I thought about the topic for discussion.
So it's best to put a conduit on the ceiling, pour concrete in the shape of a trapezoid and not worry? I am asking about foil issues etc because I am not a builder.

Jack wrote:

Since my colleague called me to the board, I will answer that the standards are for voluntary use - this is the case in the entire European Union, why should it be different in Poland.
Standards are technical knowledge resulting from practice, experience, research and hundreds of hours of work from various European committees.
And why did they not foresee such cable arrangement in their studies?

I knew that the president of PKN probably in 2010 described the applicability of the standards as optional. I thought, however, that as the standard is in the regulation or the Journal of Laws these are mandatory for use. My mistake. I greet my friend kkas12 :D

Jack wrote:

An electrician will never know what the user connects to a socket powered by such a circuit, because these are general-purpose sockets and not a circuit dedicated to a specific low-power receiver. There are 10 sockets on the circuit and both RTV receivers and electric heaters can be connected there.

Buddy Jacek, I will not agree with you, because the sockets are usually 99.9% at 16A and such a current should withstand the cable with long use. (contemporary coefficient - 1).
A colleague understands a dedicated circuit by a permanent connection or a socket-plug.

Jack wrote:

And alternative electrical engineering is breaking the rules of technical knowledge or transforming it into your own fashion.

I have a strange feeling that it is just getting more comfortable. I have already written about the fact that laying on the wall and on the floor is a big difference in time.

And what if we leave the wires and then builders cover them with polystyrene?


Thank you for participating in the discussion. Greetings.

elektronikq wrote:

Buddy Jacek, I will not agree with you, because the sockets are usually 99.9% at 16A and such a current should withstand the cable with long use.

This is why there are selection tables for the arrangement of the cable to provide the long-term permissible current that the cable will withstand. And there is no polystyrene covered wire in the standard. And what is this current supposed to be? Here colleague Darom made the calculations.

elektronikq wrote:

A colleague understands a dedicated circuit by a permanent connection or a socket-plug.

The circuit is dedicated to a specific receiver or a group of receivers, it can be permanently connected to the receiver, terminated with a special socket, a socket of a different color or by using an appropriate key as in the drawing below.

elektronikq wrote:

I have a strange feeling that it is just getting more comfortable. I have already written about the fact that laying on the wall and on the floor is a big difference in time.

I don't think, buddy, the technique can be so polished that it turns out to be the same. And the cables from the floor must also be led to junction boxes. Rather, it is about laziness and convenience to do it quickly and quickly, even at the expense of the quality of workmanship and breaking the principles of good installation practice.

elektronikq wrote:

And what if we leave the wires and then builders cover them with polystyrene?

Where are we going to leave on the wall? It's not the same, at least there is some conduit cooled from the floor of the wall. And this arrangement can be found in the standard and the permissible load current is given.

You can argue for so long and so the money and savings will win. The rat race is the most important thing. That's what this business is all about.

There is no such dilemma here - one pipe - one wire:

After entering the construction site of the first better team from screeds or plasters or some other, these beautiful white tubes that look so beautiful when stepped on are cracked and damaged.

In my opinion, the use of a conduit or a hard corrugated tube is much better, anyone who has such a broken white tube or saw it after changing temperatures knows what's going on.