Combined gas furnace for a small apartment (40 m2) in an old building

Good morning,

My wife and I started renovating the flat (with removing floors and ceilings, moving walls, new electrics and plumbing). The area of about 40 m2.
The apartment itself is located in an old building (even before World War I).

Something about the building:
- The building is not insulated
- Outer wall - quite thick (45 cm), west (which has advantages in summer) living room / kitchen / bedroom.
- The outer wall in the bathroom - necessarily eastern
- The remaining walls on the "staircase", outbuilding or the second apartment.
- Another flat below us
- Windows replaced with new ones
- Height - we'll probably do 2.60 - 2.65 (suspended ceiling + insulation)



In blue marked predicted space for radiators (we are just wondering whether to give 2 for the living room - under the window and in the "corridor"). In orange place for the stove .

Using a simple calculator on the internet it turned out to be radiators it takes approx 2200W per living room , 1100W for the kitchen , 900W per bedroom and 700W for a bathroom (ladder). It is possible that in the bathroom we will provide a heating mat only for the effect of a warm floor.

Total less than 5000W , but I don't know if these values are too low.

Chimney has height 7m , the chimney sweep suggested a turbo stove.

I read a little bit about stoves on the electrode and I got the phrase "the stove will clock". So I started looking for a stove with the lowest minimum power possible. Unfortunately, in the case of Turbo, it is difficult to find one with values below 6kW. Condensing furnaces fare better in this respect, but I do not know if it pays off with such a flat size. In addition, is it not limited by the chimney?

So I chose two stoves:
- Beretta Junior 21 esi TURBO
- Immergas VICTRIX 26 2 I

Difference in pricequite large (Immergass costs as much as a Beretta with a Tybox 137 controller and probably most of the chimney insert) and it is not known if it will ever pay off. It is also possible that 6kW of minimum power in Junior will be just right.
Both companies (as probably several others) have their services in Gniezno or Września, which is ~ 15 km from the apartment. We also have less than 50 km to Poznań, so you can go crazy at all ;)

Therefore, I would like to ask you for advice on what type of stove to choose, whether one of the two, or some other option? If someone knows a good service "from my regions" by the way, I will also be happy to contact you
And additionally, a little advice about radiators - break the living room into 2, does it make no sense?

Buddy, but the Beretta turbiak's boiler with condensing Immergas - don't be surprised that there is a price gap. In the living room, one is enough. First, decide whether the condenser or the turbo, then think about the price range in which we are moving, including the chimney, and then we will choose something.

As for the chimney - the insert has to be made anyway (no matter what stove - old chimney) so its cost is negligible.

When it comes to the price gap between Beretta and Immergas, I know what it means - I found the often recommended "regular" and condensing stove ;)

I can spend 3-3.5 thousand on a stove, but I would like to know that it makes sense even if we were to live in this apartment for less than 10 years. It cannot be a stove that is too big because it is a pity to lose too much space in the kitchen (i.e. we do not plan an additional tank).

As for what kind, it doesn't matter to me. Condensing, as far as I know, allow for a lower minimum power, smooth regulation and efficiency above 100%. Both, however, are turbo ovens with a closed chamber (am I right?).
I just don't know if the length of the chimney does not limit the choice of the stove.

Nobody will tell?

5kW of power for this small apartment is rather overpriced, the more that the windows are to the west, i.e. in the afternoon it warms up from the sun (there is a horror in the summer). Especially for the living room, the power is overstated, the kitchen is also a bit overpriced. There is one but. The power to heat this small apartment does not require much, but much more for hot water for the bathroom, so you need to choose a boiler that would have a low minimum power as a function of CO, and at the same time sufficient power to heat water to the bathroom in flow mode (you need hot water). water approx. 20kW of power) - if there is no tank (the tank takes up space).

I think I will lean towards Immergas VICTRIX 26 2 I + Tybox 137 ... minimum power 3kW ... then the radiators only need to be "oversized" a bit.
And if there are no contraindications for an ordinary turbo boiler, it will not be for a condensing one with a closed chamber? Or maybe such boilers need something "special"?

EDIT:
I just looked at the certificate after the chimney sweep and how is there a bull that the chimney is suitable for the TURBO combi gas furnace ... "condensing" is crossed ...
What causes the turbo to be OK and the condenser to be "be"?

barat wrote:

As for the chimney - the insert has to be made anyway (no matter what stove - old chimney) so its cost is negligible.

It's not about cost, it's about technical capability. Each turbiak has a strict chimney length limitation and unfortunately for most it is only a few meters.
Easier with condensate, there the lengths exceed 20.

barat wrote:

As for what kind, it doesn't matter to me. Condensing, as far as I know, allow for a lower minimum power, smooth regulation and efficiency above 100%. Both, however, are turbo ovens with a closed chamber (am I right?).
I just don't know if the length of the chimney does not limit the choice of the stove.

As you can see you were right and the low minimum power gives you big benefits. We have written about it many times here. Someone recently mentioned that any Beretta has a minimum power of 2.5kW, and this one would be perfect for you.
Don't count on quick answers. Here, those who really know each other are a bit busy and don't always have time to respond immediately. A little patience and you will learn everything. Also look in the previous threads, because on average, someone asks the same question every two weeks.

barat wrote:

I think I will lean towards Immergas VICTRIX 26 2 I + Tybox 137 ... minimum power 3kW ... then you just need to "oversize" a bit

You do not need to oversize, although in your case the cost of increasing it will not be large. Be also guided by aesthetics, choose a size that will look good.

barat wrote:

I looked at the certificate after the chimney opinion and how is there a bull that the chimney is suitable for the TURBO dual-function gas furnace ... "condensing" is crossed ...
What causes the turbo to be OK and the condenser to be "be"?

Chastity. Physically, there is no difference between the two. Just remember that in the condensate it is necessary to drain the condensate, that is, sewage close to the boiler. In a closed, condensate appears only with a greater length of the chimney, and in your case it is very likely.

This Beretta is probably:
http://www.beretta.pl/berettapl/web/pol/catalog/productdetail.jsp?id_level1=2&id_prodotto=238
It is about 2.5 thousand PLN more expensive and I do not want to invest so much.

It seems to me that the minimum power of 3kW Immergass (price ~ 3500 PLN) should also be OK and it is not worth adding the equivalent of the chimney and the controller for a difference of 0.5kW? In addition, Immergas is smaller in size (25cm deep - it gives a lot - height and width are not so important. As for the appearance - we probably enclose a cabinet (I know that the top and bottom cannot be built-up)

I guess I have to guess with the chimney sweep to "correct" the decision? Does this paper matter and if he agreed to Turbo, Kondensacyjny will also be OK?
When it comes to condensation, something will organize - behind the wall there will be a drain pipe from the sink and there is also a bathroom, so a tee and a meter of pipe should not be a problem (especially since there are no floors yet and there are bare walls)

barat wrote:

This Beretta is probably:
http://www.beretta.pl/berettapl/web/pol/catalog/productdetail.jsp?id_level1=2&id_prodotto=238
It is about 2.5 thousand PLN more expensive and I do not want to invest so much.

Indeed, Imergas fares better here. Especially the price difference. Though the Beretta has the weather included.

barat wrote:

I guess I have to guess with the chimney sweep to "correct" the decision? Does this paper matter and if he agreed to Turbo, Kondensacyjny will also be OK?
When it comes to condensation, something will organize - behind the wall there will be a drain pipe from the sink and there is also a bathroom, so a tee and a meter of pipe should not be a problem (especially since there are no floors yet and there are bare walls)

Remember about the siphon. In addition to your own boiler siphon, you must have a second one, from the sewage side, so that odors do not escape. And the drain connection has to be open, if the sewage system is clogged, the drain has to pour out. Flooding the boiler is very costly.
Don't worry about the opinion. You have to outsource the project anyway, all conditions will be specified there. We have already described the entire path.
1. Chimney sweep opinion
2. Ensuring gas supply from a local supplier.
3. Agreement of the community / building owner.
4. Project
5. Building permit
6. Performance.
7. Chimney and installation acceptance.
8. Signing a contract with a gas supplier
9. Installation of the meter and gas connection.
10. Commissioning the boiler by the service.
11. Regular service inspections.
12. Boiler replacement.
13. Happy retirement.
Although you wrote that it is for 10 years, it is valid only up to the 11th point.

You reassured me with this opinion ... interestingly, this is how we took care of "from the other side" - first we initiated the gas works, we immediately applied for one company to do the installation from the gas pipe to the box and from the box to the stove. Then a chimney sweep appeared, and yesterday there was a gentleman who measured how much of this pipe will be and put it on the plan. We already have a building permit - but it is still not final (signed only 4 days ago).

Condensate is discharged from the furnace only in the case of condensing furnaces? I read somewhere that in the case of the Turbo, something also condenses in the chimney ...

barat wrote:

Condensate is discharged from the furnace only in the case of condensing furnaces? I read somewhere that in the case of the Turbo, something also condenses in the chimney ...

Sometimes it condenses, sometimes it doesn't. There is a serious problem here. turbo is not condensate-proof and the instructions must be strictly followed. It specifies the conditions under which the condenser should be installed - a chimney fitting that intercepts the condensate in front of the boiler. In the condensate, the condensate can flow into the boiler through the flue pipe, where it connects with what has condensed on the exchanger and flows out through the siphon. There is a lot of it. Sometimes even a bucket a day.

Today I still called the company that will bring us gas to the building and from building to stove. They stated that the fact that, in the opinion of the chimney sweep, Turbo is in no way prevented them from installing a condenser :)

They service Brotje and Viessman stoves themselves, but their prices are for me massacre compared to Immergas VICTRIX 26 2 I.

Now the problem is the installation of the stove itself - the company told us there was no problem - they can install the Immergas we purchased - they just don't service it. I understand that the assembly of most furnaces is similar and it is enough that we invite an Immergas service technician to adjust it well?

Here again the question arises - does anyone from the forum know (or are) a good service technician / distributor of Immergas? We live in Czerniejewo (between Gniezno and Września - close to Poznań).

Another thing - for a moment I thought the Immergas Zeus series stove (42l built-in tank), but after seeing the price, I say that instead it might be better to buy a separate tray and place it in the attic (above the stove). There is no need to cost yourself at the beginning - there are 2 of us. If this is a 2 + 2 family, the ~ 42l container would be too small, I guess

Hello.
I would suggest considering the Ariston stove has a warranty of up to 5 years and a minimum power of 2.5kW, and if you want to lower the heating costs for a condensing stove, heaters should be larger (130-180W / m2) then heated with low parameters (50/30 / 20) you will maintain thermal comfort in the apartment.

Ariston basically has lower DHW power, it is "deeper" (315mm vs 250mm), Victrix 26 also has a 5-year warranty and there are more Gniezno / Września / Poznań services. I cannot find any advantage of GENUS PREMIUM EVO 24FF over Immergas (apart from the minimum power of 2.5kW vs 3kW).

And what are the costs of inspections?

To be honest, I was not aware of it, but I do not think that there are such colossal price differences between the brands. Let's say that the differences can be ~ PLN 50 ... the difference in the price of the boilers is +/- 10 inspections ... PLN 500 spent right now is "worth more" (inflation) than spread over time over X years ...
It can be found on the net that people pay PLN 150-170 for Immergas.

Terms of warranty

immergas:

Quote:

2. .................. The warranty period is 60 months from the date of first start-up, but no more than 66 months from the date of sale. The warranty is granted under the condition of carrying out an annual inspection by the Immergas Authorized Technical Service, each time before the end of the next year of boiler operation. The cost of the inspections is borne by the user.

3. Warranty for the Immergas boiler is granted only in the case of:
...........
e) carrying out the annual inspection of the boiler.

no price :?:



Ariston:

Quote:

1. Standard product warranty is 12 months from the date of first start ..........
2. At the customer's request, the warranty may be extended to a maximum of 5 years from the date of first commissioning under the following conditions:
- no later than before the end of 1 year of boiler operation, the Ariston Authorized Service Center must perform
paid inspection of the boiler confirmed by affixing the Sup-warranty sticker to the boiler - the cost of the inspection is PLN 169 net ....... - then the warranty is extended to 3 years ............
- not later than before the end of the 3rd year of boiler operation, the Ariston Authorized Service Center must perform
another paid inspection of the boiler confirmed by affixing the Sup-guarantee sticker to the boiler
- the cost of the inspection is PLN 169 net ............
- the warranty is then extended to 5 years from the date of the first start-up of the device.

PRICE 2X 169 PLN net

Assuming I am not going to do a yearly inspection for my own safety.
In this case, PLN 5x208 vs PLN 5x160-200 ... even as PLN 250 - the difference in boiler prices does not amortize it anyway

I can assure you that Immergas will satisfy your pocket. Especially when it's hanging on the wall. Let go of Zeus.

Well, I'm glad - let's say the stove is chosen :)

Now to embrace the heaters - if we leave the stove to professionals, we think to pull the PE-X / Al / PE-X pipes from the switching station by ourselves (you need to buy a switching station for 4 radiators, I suppose?)
We plan the switchboard under the stove (on the wall to have access to it), and then pull the pipes directly to each radiator using the shortest possible route in the floor. It seems to make sense - no connections under the floor - only connectors in accessible places + easy possibility to cut off any radiator. The switching station itself will be connected to the furnace by the "team".

I just wonder how - grooves in polystyrene, and the pipes themselves still in the cover? Is there anything complicated about it (apart from attaching the ends to the tubes)?

As for the radiators - we are thinking about some good Alu's (there will be only 3 + ladders in the bathroom) so even some "better" for low temperatures (condensing stoves "prefer" lower temperature?) Will not strain the budget. As for the bathroom - I'm afraid if the ladder will be able to warm it - it will hang over the bathtub and may be max 80cm wide ... and I don't know what power because the stores provide it for 75/65/20

Can you recommend something about this? An average person with a lot of will is able to understand the connection of radiators in such a small apartment?

Yes, for formalities - the stove (Victrix 26 2l + Tybox 137) is purchased and hangs on the wall waiting for the first start-up