Renovation: Adding 60mm Socket in Load-Bearing Wall - Electrical Safety & Legal Aspects

Hello

1. I am doing a renovation in the room. There were two sockets as standard. The previous owner made a third, i.e. a 40mm can. I am changing the installation - it is over 40 years old. Some of the wires were burnt to bare wire. The cord was under the floor. The previous owner (electrician) added a cable from the nearest socket. He embedded in the wall and ran the cord across the floor. The wire was maybe 0.5mm sq. I tore it out right away and fucked it up.
I put the cables in the floor next to the wall. In this made contact, I plan to give a 60mm can. I see the drill (with a can).

Now my questions:
I read that cables must not be laid in load-bearing walls. I agree with it. Some of my friends laughed at me saying: "How deep are you going to forge?) I put it in the floor, less forging.

1. How is drilling additional sockets in the wall from the legal side? Any permits? The manager of the building said that what is in my apartment with an electrician "collapses" on him

2. How much does it cost for an electrician to prepare documentation and approval of such an installation? Many people don't, but what if something catches fire from the installation? No insurance company will give you money.

Tomeksup wrote:

1. How is drilling additional sockets in the wall from the legal side? Any permits? The manager of the building said that what is in my apartment with an electrician "collapses" on him

Permits are not. Rather, the issue of board strength - possibly deterioration of load-bearing / strength parameters.

Tomeksup wrote:

2. How much does it cost for an electrician to prepare documentation and approval of such an installation? Many people don't, but what if something catches fire from the installation? No insurance company will give you money.

It is a matter of individual pricing. It can be PLN 500, PLN 1500 and PLN 3000. The matter of getting along with the local electricians.
Indeed, the insurer may do nothing in the event of, for example, a fire for an undetermined cause.

Tomeksup wrote:

In this made contact, I plan to give a 60mm can

If the socket is to be mounted and you do not envisage any additional connections in this box, a shallow box will suffice.

You need a diamond crown or a square and you cut a square. You can drill and punch out. Do and that's it. Only neighbors w ... isz.
The impact bit comes off. As I was doing it was a 125mm disc and drilling.

The blocks are standing

I missed 1.5 cm because I had a shallow can. I drilled with ELIZA widia lace - the cheapest. 1.5 cm - 2 minutes of work. Fortunately, that's all.

I am looking for an electrician who will issue me papers for it.

Tomeksup wrote:

2 minutes of work. Fortunately, that's all.

You were lucky
Recently, while preparing the cans (14 pieces) for assembly, everything in CONCRETE, I found 6 rebars in one hole, usually 3 to 4.
It took me a while.

I moved the 15 cm door from the room in the 15 cm thick load-bearing wall. I cut out a whole bunch of reinforcement.

With a large number of cans, it is worth buying good equipment.

I wanted to borrow a diamond core from work, but I need a diameter of 160 or 300mm.

Tomeksup wrote:

I moved the 15 cm door from the room in the 15 cm thick load-bearing wall. I cut out a whole bunch of reinforcement.

With a large number of cans, it is worth buying good equipment.

I wanted to borrow a diamond core from work, but I need a diameter of 160 or 300mm.

When there's another construction disaster, you'll wake up then.

Tomeksup wrote:

I cut out a whole bunch of reinforcement.

And do you know that in the Polish People's Republic, steel was an extremely scarce commodity? The steel mills were working at full speed, but not necessarily for the domestic market.
Back then, meat and vodka, and even chocolate for kids, were for cards. Steel and cement were special-purpose goods with exceptional marketability on the black market of the time.

You have cut a bunch of reinforcement, the neighbor will also cut it, and the next neighbor as well.
You can be sure whether the designers of these objects foreseen such actions and how much steel they designed in reserve, and how much the builders of that time could have pushed "to the left".

Do you feel safe in your home ???
Are you a hero because you have beaten an armored load-bearing wall?

My dream on this forum is to finally see how the correct replacement of the electrical installation in a large plate looks like. Photos of the works are welcome

I haven't heard a block collapse through the can openings yet. Don't panic.

Łukasz-O wrote:

My dream on this forum is to finally see how the correct replacement of the electrical installation in a large plate looks like. Photos of the works are welcome

Recently, when I mentioned it was such a dust from the angle that the camera shutter would blur :D

After all, the block is not made of boards, but a load-bearing structure covered and stiffened with boards. Damn people, did you see how the gas opened the flats, pushing the plates onto the street? The plates are gone and the block is standing.

Even to knock down a block you need to work hard.

zdzisiek1979 wrote:

Even to knock down a block you need to work hard.

What hereby some colleagues are doing.

elpapiotr wrote:

What hereby some colleagues are doing.

Probably with bad results, because so far they are all standing

Come to me and I will show you one in which all the ceilings are bent. In the whole cage, small brick posts in the kitchens were removed, because they had been placed extremely out of place and disturbed people. Now everyone has an order from the district inspector and the management of the cooperative to restore the previous state. I don't know what they will do.

Łukasz-O wrote:

elpapiotr wrote:

What hereby some colleagues are doing.

Probably with bad results, because so far they are all standing

From real life:
The breach of the structure of the building with the joyful creativity of the builders during the renovation of the apartment resulted in the renovation of the apartment one floor above, including the filling of the cracked walls. Of course, at the investor's expense of this renovation.
I had a lot of fun seeing the expressions of all of them. Of course, the building is still standing.

Maybe it is time to consider how (and why exactly) the installation was carried out when these buildings were built, instead of bidding on how many steel people cut out.
Maybe it is worth dusting off the antiquities to find out what the assembly was about and what the Wierbka-type accessories looked like.

kkas12 wrote:

Maybe it is time to consider how (and why exactly) the installation was carried out when these buildings were built, instead of bidding on how many steel people cut out.
Maybe it is worth dusting off the antiquities to find out what the assembly was about and what the Wierbka-type accessories looked like.

Krzysztof, I'm in favor, just remember that there were different systems.

elpapiotr wrote:

Probably with bad results, because so far they are all standing
From real life:
The breach of the structure of the building with the joyful creativity of the builders during the renovation of the apartment resulted in the renovation of the apartment one floor above, including the filling of the cracked walls. Of course, at the investor's expense of this renovation.
I had a lot of fun seeing the expressions of all of them. Of course, the building is still standing ... still.

It probably concerned the demolition of partition walls and has nothing to do with electrics ;)

retrofood wrote:

Come to me and I will show you one in which all the ceilings are bent. In the whole cage, small brick posts in the kitchens were removed, because they had been placed extremely out of place and disturbed people. Now everyone has an order from the district inspector and the management of the cooperative to restore the previous state. I don't know what they will do.

Cracks even arise spontaneously. I know a block where a glass on a glass is stuck to the cage (such control points).

Łukasz-O wrote:

kkas12 wrote:

Maybe it is time to consider how (and why exactly) the installation was carried out when these buildings were built, instead of bidding on how many steel people cut out.
Maybe it is worth dusting off the antiquities to find out what the assembly was about and what the Wierbka-type accessories looked like.

Krzysztof, I'm in favor, just remember that there were different systems.

We remember. Also about technological holes and furrows.
We also know how these technologies were made back then.
Here is an example - Link
During the summer holidays in 1972, I myself worked in the production of reinforcement elements for large panels, so I can say something about it.

I suggest paying special attention to the "technological holes and furrows" mentioned by Paweł. With an emphasis on "technological".

kkas12 wrote:

I suggest paying special attention to the "technological holes and furrows" mentioned by Paweł. With an emphasis on "technological".

Yes, but there were not grooves and technological holes everywhere. And the current wires do not fit into the large panel putty or 1 cm plaster.
That is why I count on fellow specialists who will share practical tips with photo documentation.

A colleague wrote 1cm thick plaster or putty - a dream. More often we hit concrete and 2mm layers of paint Good luck in laying the wires on something like this, half the trouble as the channel in the ceiling is not flooded with concrete.
Greetings,

Gentlemen

Based on my present knowledge, I would not move this door now. The opening was 80cm wide and standard height. I needed 88 cm wide and 2.05 cm for a new door. In addition, the band was overlapping (from the door) on the walls. In one place it collided with the counter in the hall. The door light was supposed to be widened and little shifted. The bad luck was that after moving the hole (I think it was no more than 10cm) I found joining the slabs - concrete with brick (?, Softer material). Due to the fact that not much of it was left, the concrete piece fell off by itself.

Now I would think about it before I hit that door. However, let's remember that in those days, record technology was based on mass production. Nobody had time to design and count. THEREFORE, I conclude that the project was overwhelmed. It can be compared to a single-family house. You buy the project and you bet. The cottage is so redesigned that it will stand in all conditions (almost). Hardly anyone makes an adaptation to save on concrete. In my opinion, it was similar in the block.

As for the furrows in the walls. One friend advised me to lay cables parallel to the floor in the wall. I let go and put it on the floor. It turned out that I had to trim the can by 1.5 cm. The foremen in front of me did most of the work.

Besides, from the floor I pulled a burnt, charred cable, 1 m long. Now I know why one socket did not have electricity.

belfegor1988 wrote:

Nobody had time to design and calculate.

Nonsense.
And as for the "stock", see the link indicated by Paweł.
The crux of the matter is clarified there.
Knots.
You do not know where they are located and you will not know without a design or knowledge of the building structure.
However, I know that the most damage to these nodes and the structure of the object is caused by mechanical forging, or rather the vibrations it causes.
And the transverse grooves (parallel to the floor) are a significant weakening of the strength of the walls.
Just like the groove in the ceiling across the Żerań slab (then most often).

kkas12 wrote:

Knots.
You do not know where they are located and you will not know without a design or knowledge of the building structure.

It should only be added that the user doing the renovation has no access to these key nodes.

kkas12 wrote:

And the transverse grooves (parallel to the floor) are a significant weakening of the strength of the walls.
Just like the groove in the ceiling across the Żerań slab (then most often).

It is impossible to disagree here, the question of how much a centimeter groove will weaken a 15 cm wide slab. There is no need to forge furrows in Żerań slabs because there are pots. You can also use dilatations

Łukasz-O wrote:

the question of how much a centimeter groove will weaken a 15 cm wide slab. There is no need to forge furrows in Żerań slabs because there are pots. You can also use dilatations

As a long-term user of a large-panel premises, I believe that the issue of forging and demolishing plates should not arise in the case of electricians at all. Even a complete replacement of the installation, not only extension, is possible without great interference in the structure of the panels. I emphasize big ones, because sometimes some minor scratches are indispensable.
Any cable connections to the overhead lighting are possible with the use of expansion joints or board joints, or in suspended ceilings, sometimes we only have to scrape something out for wall lamps. In general, it is better to run the cable not necessarily the shortest route, but add those two or three meters of cable and not play with forging!
The same applies to the installation of sockets. Cable routing in the floor or under the skirting boards and short vertical sections to the sockets. I cannot imagine cutting reinforcing wires while drilling (cutting) the cans! I just moved the location of the socket (s) if there was a wire. And I did not forge anything, I cut the holes for the accessory boxes by drilling a series of holes ?6. After such a perforation of a fragment of the wall, the rest can be broken off with a stronger screwdriver or a scraper.
On the other hand, where the situation is the most difficult, i.e. in the kitchen, there is usually no board, because the builders themselves would then have problems with the installations. In any case, however, it is possible to hide the wires behind the furniture, if the board is there, only small sections are scratched.
Can be done without forging, really!

And what does it mean to "scratch". It is rather difficult to scratch something in a concrete slab.
However, I agree that vertical sections led from the floor are the best solution. Sometimes, when you find a plate with holes, you don't have to cut furrows.
The worst place is not only the kitchen, I would also add switchboards where several or a dozen wires are connected.

Don't worry about drilling a hole saw in the plates, just check with the sensor where the rods are, and you run the wires in the plaster on the plate and oil the project, after all, this is not a new building

Knots? Do you mean protruding reinforcement fi> 20mm resting on the floor / ceiling?

I am just scratching holes in the wall without forging (for lighting). I'm not going to get tired of the drill. Easier and faster.