Potential Dangers of Forging New Installation Channels in Large-Panel Blocks

Hello
I wanted to start the topic of forging conduits for electrical installations in large-panel blocks and the resulting threats to the strength of the building.
I immediately explain that I do not want to forge these channels, because I have well-established observations on this subject - concrete should not be cleaved out of large-panel load-bearing walls.
The problem is that more and more people, replacing aluminum with copper, forge completely new installation channels in the supporting structure, at the same time the level of awareness of these people regarding their actions is equal to "0".
Today's technology makes it possible to have a quite handy jackhammer that crushes concrete like rotten wood, in the hands of an irresponsible person it is like an AK in the possession of a child.
At this point, I suppose that some people feel affected, but I am sure that no administrator or person taking responsibility for the technical condition of the building will sign the consent to violate the strength of the load-bearing walls.
After all, forging a new cable conduit in the entire large-panel apartment with simultaneous forging holes for flush-mounted contacts, and all this in the load-bearing walls, is not only a matter for the person who orders it, but for all residents of the block. Because the apartment block is a common part, taking care of its technical condition and preventing vandalism in its various manifestations is the duty of every tenant of a panel building.
Probably more than one person will ask how to replace the installations. In such a case, I use cable trays and contacts above the plaster, just a 6 '' dowel hammer drill from '' Biedronka 'for PLN 99 (I'm surprised that it lasts so long), and first of all, I do it with CULTURE.
And that someone will say that for him "not aesthetically", well, Gierków housing estates were supposed to be for the people, then no one thought about replacing the installation, just to have a place to live, I also do not have any documentation how these aluminum cables are there in these plates' 'bunkered'. But everything can be dealt with without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
And people with jackhammers can go to the street and forge concrete pavements because noise is also a significant obstacle for the residents of the block.
Finally, I would like to ask for advice from people who have knowledge in the field of large-panel construction in the above-mentioned topic what is still allowed and what is forbidden and how to enforce it.
Thanks for reading the article.

Hello.
I also live in a block of large panels. Despite the fact that the block is over 30 years old, so far no one has replaced the wires. Some wires "fly" under the floor - those that are connected to the sockets in the rooms. If someone replaces the wires it is not because he likes it, but he simply has to. Make a groove about 0.5 centimeters deep in the plate, this is not a violation of the block structure.
Construction Supervision.
Some housing cooperatives or housing associations insulate blocks. These works are supervised by the Building Supervision. Drilling with the impact of polystyrene anchors or scaffolding anchors is only a "weakening" of the building, not a cable groove.
Greetings.

The large slab also includes partition walls made using traditional techniques. However, in the concrete slabs themselves, the so-called "gary" for leading wires.

Łukasz-O wrote:

The large slab also includes partition walls made using traditional techniques. However, in the concrete slabs themselves, the so-called "gary" for carrying wires.

What about tracks in ceilings? How to do it safely and effectively?

The ceilings also feature pots and the old lighting installation from the 1970s.
PS
In the 1980s, the popularity of flooring was made.

Łukasz-O wrote:

In the 1980s, the popularity of flooring was made.

Is it about the floor above and draining the cord into the chandelier?

Exactly
This is how the whole of Ursynów was built in Warsaw. On the other hand, other housing estates in the village are ceiling gates.

Thanks for the response, listen, it is not about a groove with a depth of 0.5 cm, because the three-wire cable itself with a capacity of 25 amps is of a similar thickness, channels burrow a few centimeters deep in the load-bearing walls and ceilings. Concrete is not e.g. steel, where the milled 30 mm recesses are the same as the actual material loss, concrete is a brittle material and, apart from the material that has been torn out, under the furrow there are numerous cracks and weakening of the structure, and such a hammer could even be handled by a child. The block I live in had a guarantee for 40 years and I would like it to be 3 times as long in peace, the chain is as strong as its weakest link and a split 30 mm horizontally is the same as slimmed down on the whole vertical.
I would not be afraid of anchors, etc. operations performed with the drilling technique (within reason, of course) because it is within the limits of the calculation error. But forging along the entire length of the channels is already slimming the walls, forging ceilings is carving where the slab works the most in tension.
In addition, the main issue is also mine, yours, our common area, the construction was completed a long time ago, and if you saw a person hiding a copper under their skin, it might be better to build a single-family house and forge there at will.
I am a calm, tolerant person, let them listen to what music they want, etc., but apart from the overriding issue in the above-mentioned case, there is also the noise of wrought concrete, which I would not wish you to listen to, especially if you came back from the night shift.
And it is not about what you would do going down to such a delinquent, but about a clear prohibition of violating the structural elements.

Hello .
I also live quietly in a block of flats and everyone has done some repairs around, one even carved a piece of the load-bearing wall and the block is not going to collapse, it stands firm.

A friend Lewer is a general knowledge lover, building manager, designer or user? It is important to explain the problem decisively.
Every renovation team can screw up everything, but there are limits that you can be calm about.

But what's up ... A case from 2008, where in a tenement house in Warsaw's Powiśle, a young couple bought a flat on the 3rd floor in an ordinary pre-war tenement house. A tenement house like a tenement house, fire walls made of solid bricks, partition walls made of perforated holes.
A professional interior design company was hired. A family business - an architect and her husband, by the way, a supervisory inspector in a certain facility in the capital.
It was decided to demolish all partition walls and design a new, better "M". The restaurant took up practically the entire floor.
Business is business.
It was unfortunate that the next day after the "revolution", the ceiling rose by 3 cm in the apartment one floor below.
Who knows why? Will send 100 points.

I corrected that toe ... [Luke]

As the load-bearing joists have been relieved, the wooden ceiling should be properly weighted, otherwise
springing up.

It was not a wooden ceiling. BUT you do well.

You mean I was right or is it about something else?

bartekfigura wrote:

You mean I was right or is it about something else?

Basically and briefly it is like this, because it was not about the type of ceiling it was all about. Points gone

Thank you. And you can describe this situation exactly now, because I'm curious what exactly was going on

I don't know much. I was supposed to do electrical installations there, if another team would put up new walls, but as you probably guessed, my work had to be suspended After that, I had no interest in it and I don't know how it all ended.
Probably expert opinions were made and the ceiling was re-weighted. I have no idea.

Łukasz-O wrote:

Probably expert opinions were made and the ceiling was re-weighted. I have no idea.

A bit offtop .. but ...
This is strange because when they were building this ceiling (without partition walls) they had to foresee this 3-centimeter bulge which would compensate for the load and which would reappear when the load was removed.
And with a few "kleins" and "ackers" I assisted (in the whole range of these works) and the ceiling was always made "to the level". It follows that when it is loaded with walls, it should bend by 3 cm.
But none of them bowed ...
EOT

I would like to discuss it, but as I wrote before, I have no idea how the situation was removed.

The topic is discussed many times, but many contractors believe that "no problem, you can cut it out and get money quickly":
http://ise.pl/index.php?option=com_jfusion&It...k=t&sd=a&sid=9ecebf4de973b02efc9ff2edbb8d54da
http://ise.pl/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=39&jfile=viewtopic.php&f=23&t=8301&p=0#p0
http://ise.pl/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=39&jfile=viewtopic.php&f=12&t=11063&p=0#p0
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=79483434
https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic2019943.html ...


(words for general search engines: furrow ceiling catastrophe big plate)

PS:
- 5x1.5mm2 cables should be used for lighting (I wrote why)
- flat (and very expensive, super-flat) speaker cables can be used for low-voltage power supply, e.g. LED
- the missing PE conductor can be added (even when living in), also via other routes - it can be part of -> ground network of the building (apartment) -> LEMP, EMC; better two thinner on both sides than one thicker on the one (lower inductance, greater reliability).

kondensator wrote:

- 5x1.5mm2 wires should be used for lighting (I wrote why)

Maybe a colleague elaborate on this topic?

kondensator wrote:

The topic is discussed many times, but many contractors believe that "no problem, you can cut it out and get money quickly":

It is thanks to the Capacitor that was the direction of the conversation that I meant, the most important thing in all this is of course the issue of safety and there is an additional nuisance for other residents of the block related to the annoying noise (people living in single-family houses may not feel the base). It is best to start with a conversation with the tenant causing the above-mentioned inconvenience, I did not find the person because he left (probably the noise was harmful to him), the only person left was the person carrying out the order, but this one feels in the role of "The Lord punishes the servant must". He only pretends to know, so you see how it is, you can go on and on, but it won't work until it all collapses.
Tell yourself if you live in a block of large panels, which by definition is not a villa, instead of using cable trays, you need someone to rip the structural elements to hide the cables in them (I am excluding only the person as above who will be paid for this order).

Lewer wrote:

The only thing left for me is the person performing the order, but this one feels in the role of "The Lord punishes the servant must." all of this will not collapse. Tell yourself if you live in a block of flats, which by definition is not a villa, instead of using cable trays, you need to break the structural elements to hide the cables in them (except for the person as above who will be paid for this order).

Unfortunately, in 99.999% of cases it is "either you will do as I say, or I will not pay for the work so far and get out, I will find someone who will do it, and cheaper!" - and cry (those who do not realize the threat do not cry) but cut the ceiling, make a socket over the bathtub, connect the second lamp circuit in a new chandelier with fixtures up to 40W (to which the owner will screw 6x100W and suppress 60% light and warm lampshades - because it must be nice and light at the same time) on the ceiling to the protective vein and whatever (stupid / dangerous) who wants and pays for it ... because the PRL-bis and ZUS are not, for example, UK ... Sad but true, just like the aluminum TN-C that cannot be replaced.

A set of words for general search engines: furrow ceiling catastrophe big plate - most of the links will be "bad" - that is, "cut out, cut out and be OK" ...

Łukasz-O wrote:

kondensator wrote:

- 5x1.5mm2 wires should be used for lighting (I wrote why)

Maybe a colleague elaborate on this topic?

Forum search engine (sometimes it even works) -> 5x1.5mm2 + author = here probably 6 times so far, there was also something on ISE or SEP

I am not interested in what you write in other forums. On the other hand, I found one post on the electrode in which you tried to explain it Link .

You might as well write that intelligent installations should be made, or at least adapted for this purpose - which is not true.

kondensator wrote:

- 5x1.5mm2 cables should be led for lighting

Instead of a word "belongs" , it would be more appropriate to say "in my opinion" . What you wrote there is only your opinion. So please do not write that something is not required since it is not required.

Familiarize yourself with the topic Link

Quote:

It should, should. The word forms used in normalization have long been the words we use to describe a requirement. If somewhere in the standard it says: '' should be "or" should "- it is required. However, the terms" should not, should not, not allowed "- also mean a requirement.
If something is recommended, it means that it is recommended but not mandatory (not a requirement), just like: not recommended -> not recommended. If something is done -> means: it may or may (be).
Should = should
Should not = should not = not allowed
Recommended = recommended
Not recommended = not recommended
Not required = not required = not allowed ...
Maybe = can = is possible
It is not possible = it cannot be = it is impossible
The word "must" is not used.

Lewer wrote:

Tell yourself if you live in a block of large panels, which by definition is not a villa, instead of using cable trays, you need someone to rip the structural elements to hide the cables in them?

Following this line of reasoning, nothing can be done in the block. Replacing the door with anti-burglary, replacing windows, placing tiles, lowering the ceiling, insulation, new roofing - all this causes an additional load on the building. So it's best to demolish it, since one tenant is disturbed by a bit of noise. Nonsense, sir, such an incision will not hurt the building.

andrefff wrote:

Nonsense, sir, such an incision will not hurt the building.

I wouldn't be so sure about that!
Although fortunately we do not hear about construction disasters caused by "carving" in a large slab (yet), in many opinions this slab is compared to a glass pane that breaks after a microscopic incision.
How much truth is there in that? I don't know, after all, concrete is not glass, but there is something to it.

Łukasz-O wrote:

I am not interested in what you write in other forums.

I can only regret it, many issues and topics are connected (sometimes also by the writer) and there is no monopoly of one forum.

Łukasz-O wrote:

On the other hand, I found one post on the electrode in which you tried to explain it (...) You might as well write that intelligent installations should be made, or at least adapted for this purpose - which is not true.

kondensator wrote:

- 5x1.5mm2 cables should be led for lighting

Instead of a word "belongs" , it would be more appropriate to say "in my opinion" . What you wrote there is only your opinion. So please do not write that something is not required since it is not required.
Familiarize yourself with the topic Link

Quote:

It should, should. The word forms used in normalization have long been the words we use to describe a requirement. if somewhere normal it says: "" should be "or" should "- this is required. However, the terms" should not, should not, not allowed "- also mean a requirement. (...) The word" must "is not used .

Thank you, my colleague, for a very useful link https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic1761772.html
I will try not to forget to add "IMHO", there is a chance that it will increase the readability of the posts. I do not want to argue, but I HAVE NOT WRITTEN anything like "standard / journal of laws / regulation X states that Y wires should be used", so far it was just a text like "hammer should be used to drive nails" or "older people should be replaced" - a quotation from the principles of good practice or culture, so far there is probably no directive or standard yet (*) Regards, my colleague, we must all be patient (IMHO) :)

(*) as for Polish Standards - in the issue 01-2013 of the monthly "Inżynier Budownictwa", there is a long text "Voluntary or obligatory use of PN - a two-voice in the case" - and this problem cannot be solved for many years, just like the problem of buying bottles. ..
http://www.piib.org.pl/index.php/iniynier-budownictwa-topmenu-91
http://www.piib.org.pl/pliki/ib/ib_01_13.pdf
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And to all those who wish to forge / cut grooves (grooves) in ceilings and load-bearing walls, I suggest first to imagine a model of a house made of glass plates, of course loaded inside. It can also be a glass bookcase, with a new, very expensive, huge TV set, souvenir crystal vases for the mother-in-law, etc. "treasures". Now we give the child a cheap glass stylus with a quasi-diamond and a strip / ruler, and we say that he can draw long lines on these glass panes with the above-mentioned tool ... Glass is much thicker than the depth of scratches that a child can make with a stylus, and additionally glass is even a bit springy (reinforced concrete too) ... Are you willing? In this example with the model, you can lose a certain amount of money, in fact (construction) much more along with someone else's health and life. I hope such an example (IMHO) will be enough.

With some shyness I will add:
Let's boldly kick the big plate. But let's also remember that for the designer of this board, probably the overriding goal was to obtain maximum strength with minimal use of materials (scarce at that time). Let's count down how much cement went "to the left" (and it went a lot).

I have an overwhelming impression that the author of the topic has a new installation located in the channels, and now he is looking for support for his pseudo-scientific theses.

zbich70 wrote:

But let's also remember that for the designer of this board, probably the overriding goal was to obtain maximum strength with minimal use of materials (scarce at that time). Let's count down how much cement went "to the left" (and it went a lot).

Let us carefully take into account the fact that the great slab was built in a hurry with not exactly good materials. During the renovation at my parents' apartment, it turned out that the prefabricated slab covering the installation channel with hot and cold water pipes stayed on wooden wedges for over 10 years. So the quality of the assembly of these boards also leaves much to be desired. Not to mention the 1984 beer caps found at the bottom of the plumbing