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Analyzing the Correctness of Simple CO Installation Diagram in an Open System with Copper Pipes

Siber2 16605 19
Best answers

Czy układ otwartej instalacji CO z kotłem, pompą i naczyniem wzbiorczym podłączonym cienkim PEX-em na powrocie jest poprawny i czy po wyłączeniu pompy potrzebny jest zawór różnicowy?

Nie — naczynie wzbiorcze/equalizujące powinno być podłączone na zasilaniu, a nie na powrocie, i nie przez 15–16 mm PEX do pieca [#16790025] Zawór różnicowy uznano za zbędny, bo po wyłączeniu pompy woda i tak przejdzie przez wirnik stojącej pompy; nie licz też na to, że taki układ będzie sensownie grzał grzejniki grawitacyjnie [#16790028] Zasugerowano też termometr na zasilaniu za pompą, bo wtedy temperatura na obu rozdzielaczach będzie taka sama [#16795428] Jeśli w obiegu kotłowym nie ma osobnej pompy, dla zaworu 4D i całego obiegu kotłowego polecano 6/4", a za zaworem zejść do 1"; przy pompie kotłowej wystarczy 1" zawór 4D [#16817814][#16822408] Do tego padła sugestia pomp 25-40 zamiast 80, bo większe mogą tylko zwiększać pobór prądu i hałas [#16798367][#16797976]
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  • #1 16789619
    Siber2
    Level 2  
    I warmly welcome. I have a great request to those familiar with the topic of a simple diagram of a CO installation in an open system.
    I put the scheme that I want to do and I have a question if it is correct. The drawing is general, valves, air vents, safety valves, tank protecting the boiler, etc. are coming
    I am asking for an opinion whether the system connected in this way will work properly. The boiler is supposed to work by gravity when the pump turns off, which pushes water to the radiators in a forced system. A detector will be installed in the pump, which will turn it off after the temperature drops, which will prevent the water from cooling out of the DHW. Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
    greetings
    I would like to add that the installation was made of copper, the riser pipe I wanted to give 22 or 25 copper.
    Analyzing the Correctness of Simple CO Installation Diagram in an Open System with Copper Pipes

    Installation at this time is done as shown in the second drawing. The expansion vessel plugged into the back with Pex raises my concerns. The differential valve also seems unnecessary to me, since the radiator system works in a forced system, it would be enough to install the pump as in the first drawing. I don't know if I think correctly.
    Analyzing the Correctness of Simple CO Installation Diagram in an Open System with Copper Pipes
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  • #2 16789954
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #3 16789993
    Siber2
    Level 2  
    Thank you for your answer. Regarding the differential valve - after switching off the pump, e.g. in the absence of gravity current on the radiators, it will not be because the circulation is forced, only gravity will circulate the water to the hot water boiler. The dish will be under the ceiling above the stove, height about 3.2 m.
    Is the diagram in the first drawing correct then?
    The biggest reservations I have about the existing installation presented in the second drawing - a vessel connected with a 15-16 mm pex into the oven. It seems to me that this is not consistent with the so-called safety standards. Do I think right?
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  • #4 16790025
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
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  • #5 16790028
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #6 16790145
    Siber2
    Level 2  
    I also think that the differential valve is unnecessary since after switching off the pump there is no gravity. Before the pump I wanted to connect the boiler so that when the pump was turned off there was gravity on the boiler. As e.g. the water temperature will drop and the pump will turn off it will protect the boiler against cooling down because the radiators will not receive heat. I am not an expert but I think about human logic. The current installation was made by a plumber but it seems to me that it is not necessary "complicated" + a dish that on the pex is probably a mistake. Thank you very much for your reply.

    I drew a modified layout of an existing installation. That the connected vessel will be properly. Analyzing the Correctness of Simple CO Installation Diagram in an Open System with Copper Pipes
  • #7 16794804
    chudino
    Level 12  
    allow me to hook up on the topic not to set one up on the installation scheme. I am finishing creating my installation and I would like to consult with experts about my project. It is true that he was created with the help of his dad, who is a plumber and makes large boiler rooms, but always with a ready project, and he is not sure what we created. The house will eventually have an area of about 200 sq m, but I won't be able to use the floor, it is 120 sq m. The furnace for now is as it is, garbage truck from Pleszew uks-n 14kw. after renovation it will be changed. Open system, all pipes for steel manifolds (diameters marked in the picture), behind pex wavin 16 manifolds. 4-way valve 6/4 inch, in my opinion a bit to spare but I leave it to your assessment. What do you think about the Biawar WE 220.81 heat exchanger, MEGA 220l heat exchanger, they advised me at the warehouse. The number of thermometers is my idea, I prefer to have everything under control :) thank you in advance for your help and I count on valuable tips Analyzing the Correctness of Simple CO Installation Diagram in an Open System with Copper Pipes
  • #8 16795428
    gersik
    Level 33  
    Siber2 wrote:
    I drew a modified layout of an existing installation. That the connected vessel will be properly
    No.

    Added after 3 [minutes]:

    chudino wrote:
    I count on valuable tips
    Supply thermometer, give one behind the pump. The temperature will be the same on both distributors. Correct diagram.
  • #9 16795567
    chudino
    Level 12  
    and the diameters of ru, valve and pump ok?
  • #10 16796482
    gersik
    Level 33  
    What are the 80 pumps for? Is this a block?
  • #11 16796713
    chudino
    Level 12  
    gersik wrote:
    What are the 80 pumps for? Is this a block?
    I got 2 new ones and wanted to use it. Their power can cause a problem?
  • #12 16797976
    gersik
    Level 33  
    Unnecessary energy consumption and installation noise may occur.
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  • #13 16798007
    chudino
    Level 12  
    What do you recommend for a bunk house? From the stove to the highest point or dishes will be some 7-8m.
  • #15 16817656
    chudino
    Level 12  
    and another question about the size of a 4-way valve. If the installation certainly won't work by gravity and the pump has a DN25 connection, is it a dream to mount a 6/4 inch valve? Maybe to reduce to 1 inch before the valve, give an inch valve and then a inch to the pump?
  • #16 16817814
    gersik
    Level 33  
    If there is no pump in the boiler circuit, then the valve and the entire boiler circuit 6/4 ". Behind the 4d valve you can reduce to 1". After all, you drew all this so why you want to change.
  • #17 16820897
    chudino
    Level 12  
    and because he fooled me in a warehouse guy and claimed that a 1 inch 4d valve is enough
  • #19 16823016
    chudino
    Level 12  
    He has already forgotten to say that :) so I leave it as at the beginning, only with these smaller pumps which you advised me. Thank you for your valuable advice
  • #20 17955248
    wojtek200001
    Level 10  
    Hello. Maybe not in the subject but what do you think about my diagram? I'm getting ready to complete the central one. house 180m2 ground floor oven defro eco 15kw with feeder
    thanks in advance Analyzing the Correctness of Simple CO Installation Diagram in an Open System with Copper Pipes

Topic summary

✨ The discussion revolves around the correctness of a simple CO installation diagram for an open system using copper pipes. The user seeks validation of their design, which includes components like valves, air vents, and safety valves, and aims for gravity operation when the pump is off. Responses highlight the necessity of a differential valve, with some arguing it is unnecessary due to the lack of gravity circulation when the pump is off. Concerns are raised about the existing installation's safety standards, particularly regarding the connection of a vessel with smaller diameter pipes. Additional queries about pump sizes, valve dimensions, and the overall design of the heating system are also addressed, with suggestions for modifications to ensure proper functionality and efficiency.
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FAQ

TL;DR: For open-vented copper systems, keep the boiler circuit at 6/4" and “Behind the 4d valve you can reduce to 1".” [Elektroda, gersik, post #16817814] Why it matters: This FAQ helps DIYers and installers verify simple CO diagrams, avoid unsafe vessel hookups, and pick the right pump and valve sizes.

Quick Facts

Is my simple open‑system CO diagram correct as drawn?

Check two things first: put the supply thermometer behind the pump and verify the vessel is on the supply. That matches the corrected diagram guidance in the thread. If your layout differs, revise before commissioning. “Correct diagram” notes followed that thermometer change. [Elektroda, gersik, post #16795428]

Where should the open expansion/overflow vessel connect?

Connect the vessel on the supply line, not on the return. This keeps a clear, low‑resistance path for gravity circulation to relieve heat during outages and avoids trapping the boiler behind the pump. [Elektroda, 762302, post #16790025]

Do I need a differential bypass valve in an open system?

Often you don’t. An idle wet‑rotor pump is not a hard stop; water can move through the impeller for natural circulation. One contributor tested flow through a pump versus a bypass and saw little difference. “Differential valve not needed.” [Elektroda, 2834736, post #16790028]

Why do some installers still add a differential valve?

As a blackout safeguard. If power fails with fuel burning, the bypass offers an easier path for gravity flow to help cool the boiler. It’s a safety‑minded detail, even if radiators won’t heat by gravity in many layouts. [Elektroda, 762302, post #16789954]

Will my radiators heat by gravity when the pump switches off?

No. Expect limited gravity flow to help the boiler, but not enough to heat radiators. The safety goal is cooling the furnace, not room heating. Plan radiator heat for pumped operation only. [Elektroda, 762302, post #16790025]

Is a 15–16 mm PEX connection to the open vessel acceptable?

Thread guidance flags small‑bore return connections as a risk. Place the vessel on the supply and keep a full‑bore, unobstructed path to the boiler to ensure reliable venting and gravity relief. Avoid restrictive PEX stubs for that link. [Elektroda, 762302, post #16790025]

What pump size fits a two‑story house discussed here?

Use 25–40 circulators. This class balances head and flow for typical small‑to‑medium homes while limiting noise and energy use. Quote: “Pumps 25-40.” Match connection DN25 when possible. [Elektroda, gersik, post #16798367]

My highest point is about 7–8 m; does that change pump choice?

That height came up in the thread. Pair it with 25–40 pumps as advised, and verify loop resistance per your layout. Keep the open vent path clear to the vessel at the top level. [Elektroda, chudino, post #16798007]

Are “80” circulators overkill for this kind of installation?

Yes. They can waste energy and introduce installation noise without delivering meaningful benefits in these simple loops. Downsizing reduces consumption and improves comfort. That was the final recommendation. [Elektroda, gersik, post #16797976]

What size 4‑way mixing valve should I use without a boiler‑circuit pump?

Keep the boiler circuit and 4‑way valve at 6/4" to minimize resistance and support gravity safety flow. After the valve, you can reduce distribution piping to 1". “Behind the 4d valve you can reduce to 1".” [Elektroda, gersik, post #16817814]

If I add a pump in the boiler circuit, can I use a 1" 4‑way valve?

Yes. With a dedicated boiler‑circuit pump, a 1" 4‑way valve is acceptable. The pump overcomes circuit resistance, so the larger 6/4" loop is not required. [Elektroda, gersik, post #16822408]

Where should I place a supply thermometer for accurate readings?

Install the supply thermometer behind the pump, serving both manifolds. This placement reflects delivered supply temperature under real flow. It was the specific correction suggested. [Elektroda, gersik, post #16795428]

How do I prioritize DHW gravity flow when the pump turns off?

Use this three‑step check: 1. Pipe the vessel on the supply above the boiler. 2. Ensure an unobstructed path from boiler to DHW coil. 3. Test circulation with the pump off and hot boiler to confirm natural flow. [Elektroda, Siber2, post #16789993]

What happens if my design relies on gravity to heat rooms during outages?

Expect an edge case failure: radiators will not heat by gravity in the discussed layouts. Gravity assists boiler cooling only. Plan backups accordingly and avoid oversizing pumps to compensate. [Elektroda, 762302, post #16790025]
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