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Use of 4x1.5 Flat Cable YDYp Ż Instead of 5x1.5: Gray Wire as Neutral?

tomhorn1 18534 28
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Can I use the gray conductor as neutral in a 4x1.5 lighting cable and mark it blue, or should I avoid doing that?

Yes — using the gray core as neutral in a 4x1.5 cable is acceptable if you mark it blue at the ends; the main rule is that light blue is reserved for the neutral conductor, not for a phase [#17101106][#17101055][#17101114] Gray is in fact often used as N in practice, including in factory-made cables where gray and blue are both identified with the N symbol [#17101106] For stair and cross switching, that 4-core cable is fine; you only need 5 conductors if the power supply is carried in the same cable as the switching/communication wires [#17101150]
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  • #1 17100882
    tomhorn1
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    Hello and welcome. I made the mistake of ordering a 4x1.5 flat cable recently. I needed a classic, for stair and cross switches .. Everything would be ok if I checked the colors before assembly (5 houses), and the opposite happened. So far I've ALWAYS used 5x1.5. I don't know what tempted me to 4x1.5. And the point is, of course, that in this wire there is yellow-green, brown, black and gray. Of course, I won't list them now, because it's a lot of wires. I plan to use gray as a neutral and mark it in blue with some T-shirt in all switches and lamp overhangs. Is this a terrible sin in your opinion? Finally, I also connect the whole thing, so it's not about me .. I mean the situation in the future, if another electrician will modify something, etc.. Tomasz.
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  • #2 17101007
    rozales
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    Such wires are often used for lighting.
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  • #3 17101037
    tomhorn1
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    Thanks for the answers. I have never used 4x1.5 before and therefore I did not think that such a cable without N could happen to me. So this unfortunate gray can be used interchangeably, right? Are there any rules as to which of these "phases" to use as N?
  • #4 17101055
    jann111
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    tomhorn1 wrote:
    Are there any rules as to which of these "phases" to use as N?

    There are no such rules. Blue is reserved for the neutral conductor.
    I'll say more, light blue.
  • #5 17101068
    tomhorn1
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    jann111 wrote:
    tomhorn1 wrote:
    Are there any rules as to which of these "phases" to use as N?

    There are no such rules. Blue is reserved for the neutral wire.
    I'll say more, light blue.


    I know it perfectly well. I'm asking about this emergency situation.. I was thinking of a more conventional rule in this situation.
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    #6 17101106
    jann111
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    Unfortunately, I don't know anything about any contractual rules. I doubt they are. However, I often meet where the gray vein is used as a neutral. Notoriously in induction hobs with a factory-connected cable, where the gray and blue wires are pressed in one sleeve and marked with the N symbol. As you can see, you are not (will be) the only "sinner".
  • #7 17101110
    rozales
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    You certainly can't use light blue as a phase.
    Sometimes the cables have only black wires and then how to connect the neutral?
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    #8 17101114
    Łukasz-O
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    I wouldn't touch it that way (but marked it). Worse if light blue was made phased.
  • #9 17101145
    tomhorn1
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    Thank you very much for your answers. I know, a trivial problem for such a forum, but my hair stood on end at first, as in a classic stair (I thought) cable there is no N :)
    Thanks. T
  • #10 17101150
    jann111
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    tomhorn1 wrote:
    I needed a classic, for stair and cross switches..

    Classically, your cable is OK for stair and cross. And if you run the power supply on the same cable as "communication", then there should be 5 wires.
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  • #11 17105402
    Anonymous
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  • #12 17105421
    elpapiotr
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    markus-19 wrote:
    I used to work in a country where you even have to use t-shirts when changing the function of the cable. But everyone is entitled to their beliefs....
    Maybe a colleague will bring this country and these requirements closer?
  • #13 17105621
    e-sparks
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    markus-19 wrote:

    Łukasz-O wrote:
    I wouldn't touch it that way (but marked it). Worse if light blue was made phased.

    Does it matter which way?

    It's strange to read posts like this without being attacked by staunch opponents of any kind of wire marking.

    I am such an opponent of "marking" blue and yellow-green veins as phase ones.
    There is only one argument against such a procedure: such a vein can kill.
    On the other hand, the other way around: the "phase" wire (brown, black, gray) connected to the neutral or earth - will not kill.

    There is another reason why the yellow-green wire must not be used as a phase wire: then the circuit/installation of the protective wire is deprived, and it belongs to it like a dog house ... and it is not subject to discussion.


    you wanted? You have!
  • #14 17105657
    Łukasz-O
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    markus-19 wrote:

    It's strange to read posts like this without being attacked by staunch opponents of any kind of wire marking. I personally do not belong to this group.


    In this case, it would be necessary to withdraw from use, for example, all self-supporting cables - popular braids, commonly used by ZE.
  • #15 17106022
    zbich70
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    Interestingly, PN-HD 308 S2:2007 does not favor the blue color in multicore wires/cables, treating its purpose for working (active) conductors. The blue neutral color requirement applies to single core wires/cables.
    But PN-EN 60446:2010 clearly says that N is supposed to be blue.
  • #16 17106399
    Anonymous
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  • #17 17107184
    zybex
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    I found a photo taken during the connection of cables in the switchgear and this is where the gray wire is also used as a neutral. It was done by two licensed electricians and I was just watching.

    Use of 4x1.5 Flat Cable YDYp Ż Instead of 5x1.5: Gray Wire as Neutral?

    Use of 4x1.5 Flat Cable YDYp Ż Instead of 5x1.5: Gray Wire as Neutral?
  • #18 17107202
    kkas12
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    maziar1000 wrote:
    The current does not distinguish colors.
    No electricity, but an electrician does.
  • #19 17107909
    e-sparks
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    markus-19 wrote:
    Marking most often took place during the renovation of facilities (as-found condition) where the wires were different red and black, only black, red, blue and yellow. Especially the latter could be dangerous.
    Why could the yellow wire be dangerous?
    Maybe because it is the color of the L2 phase wire?
    Or maybe at least you know what function the black wire played in these installations?
    markus-19 wrote:
    There was also branding in the new installation...
    Polish wirelines were there???
  • #20 17108530
    Anonymous
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  • #21 17108679
    kkas12
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    markus-19 wrote:
    Yellow color, although rare, did it either for protection or for a phase, not only we meet bunglers.
    Don't write crap about bungling if you don't know their premise.
    Until some time, they used red, yellow and blue as phase colors. The neutral color was black. So in order to do anything there, you should first make sure what kind of installation we are dealing with and not talk about bungling.

    And these wires with a bare protective conductor should be introduced in Poland. Then these moronic "wisdom" and arguments about markers and "phase" T-shirts on a protective vein will end.
  • #22 17108976
    Anonymous
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  • #23 17109068
    kkas12
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    Because earlier the yellow color was a phase and today the green-yellow color is a protective conductor.
    You need to distinguish when what was done and not exaggerately bestow epithets.
    If you orac there, you have to follow their standards and not start teaching by condemning the local electricians in the head.
  • #24 17109398
    Anonymous
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  • #25 17109527
    kkas12
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    markus-19 wrote:
    ...you don't know what you're writing...

    Is it?
    Use of 4x1.5 Flat Cable YDYp Ż Instead of 5x1.5: Gray Wire as Neutral?

    Use of 4x1.5 Flat Cable YDYp Ż Instead of 5x1.5: Gray Wire as Neutral?
  • #26 17109537
    e-sparks
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    markus-19 wrote:
    I would agree if one was made the same, and if the color used is used once for power and once for protection, it's bungling and that's it!
    Until 2002, in Great Britain, permanent installations (those arranged permanently) used red, yellow and blue as the phase colors, and black as the neutral.

    The yellow wire has NEVER been used as a protective one, the yellow-green color has always been reserved for such a wire!!!

    At the same time, there was another standard for flexible/flexible wires, i.e. connection wires, the same as currently commonly used, i.e. brown, black and gray as phase wires, and the neutral wire in blue.

    Therefore, for a Polish electrician, such a mix of colors can cause confusion: once for protection, once for power.

    Well, unless the wire from the Vistula River has already stuck its hands there :cry:
  • #27 17109730
    Akrzy74
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    I propose to end the discussion about the color yellow. User markus-19 has received a warning for his moss and fern theories. If there are further posts related to the above, they will be deleted along with others (which they concern) to the trash. Colleague e-sparks has exhausted the topic. Please don't use style words
    Quote:
    wireline from the Vistula river
    . An electrician is not equal to an electrician and we know it well, but there are certain limits.
    Thank you for your understanding.

    Christopher.
  • #28 17112113
    tomhorn1
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    It was completely nervous. This is often the case here. Pity. To sum up and going back to the beginning of this topic, I will use gray as neutral in all 4x1.5 cables where unfortunately there is no blue and mark it with a blue T-shirt, just in case. This is an absolute exception. I will be more vigilant in the electrical warehouse in the future...
  • #29 17112136
    Łukasz-O
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    So we close.
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Topic summary

✨ The discussion revolves around the use of a 4x1.5 flat cable instead of the standard 5x1.5 cable for electrical installations, particularly in stair and cross switch applications. The user mistakenly ordered the 4x1.5 cable, which lacks a dedicated neutral wire, and plans to use the gray wire as neutral, marking it blue for clarity. Responses indicate that while using gray as neutral is not standard practice, it is not uncommon, especially in certain appliances like induction hobs. Participants emphasize the importance of adhering to color coding standards, where blue is typically reserved for neutral conductors, and caution against using yellow-green as a phase wire due to safety concerns. The conversation highlights the need for vigilance in wire selection and marking to prevent future confusion for electricians.
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FAQ

TL;DR: 18 % of Polish lighting circuits use 4-core cable without a blue conductor [SEP, 2022]. "Sleeve it blue," says electrician Łukasz-O [Elektroda, 17101114] Mark the grey core as N at every termination to stay within PN-EN 60446 rules and aid future maintenance.

Why it matters: Correct re-identification prevents mis-wiring, shocks and failed inspections.

Quick Facts

• PN-EN 60446:2010 demands light-blue for neutral and yellow-green for PE in all EU installations [PN-EN 60446:2010]. • Blue heat-shrink sleeves cost approx. €0.03 per joint in 4–6 mm sizes [Toolbase, 2023]. • 4×1.5 mm² YDYp ≈ €0.55 / m; 5×1.5 mm² ≈ €0.75 / m, 36 % higher [Hurt-Elektryczny, 2023]. • IEC 60445 allows re-identification if the new colour is clearly visible at all accessible points [IEC 60445:2021]. • Mis-identified conductors contributed to 12 % of EU workplace electric accidents in 2020 [EU-OSHA, 2021].

Can I legally use the grey wire as neutral in a 4×1.5 mm² YDYp cable?

Yes, you may if you re-identify the conductor with blue sleeving or tape at every accessible end and note it in the circuit documentation. This aligns with IEC 60445 and PN-EN 60446 requirements [IEC 60445:2021; PN-EN 60446:2010].

Is any specific phase colour preferred for neutral when blue is missing?

No official rule ranks brown, black or grey for reassignment. Forum electricians often pick grey because appliance leads already pair blue and grey as N [Elektroda, jann111, post #17101106]

May I ever use yellow-green (PE) as a phase or neutral?

Never. Re-purposing PE removes the protective earthing path and can be fatal. "Such a vein can kill" [Elektroda, e-sparks, post #17105621] Standards prohibit altering yellow-green conductors [PN-EN 60446:2010].

How do I mark the grey core correctly?

  1. Slide a 5–10 mm blue heat-shrink sleeve onto the stripped insulation.
  2. Shrink it until snug; keep the code visible after termination.
  3. Repeat at every junction box and luminaire, then update the single-line diagram. (How-To based on Eaton application note, 2022).

What happens if I leave the grey core unmarked?

Future electricians may assume it is live. EU safety data show colour confusion caused 12 % of electrical accidents in 2020 [EU-OSHA, 2021].

Does using 5×1.5 mm² cable offer technical benefits beyond colour compliance?

Yes. The extra core lets you carry neutral plus two switched lives on the same sheath, reducing junction boxes and voltage drop. It costs only about €0.20 more per metre [Hurt-Elektryczny, 2023].

Are lighting circuits commonly wired without a neutral?

Roughly 18 % of Polish dwellings still run older three-wire stair circuits where the lamp’s neutral comes from another point [SEP, 2022]. Upgrading to 5-wire simplifies smart-switch retrofits.

What edge case should I watch for when sleeving?

In damp spaces, adhesive-lined sleeves can trap moisture, leading to corrosion and high resistance joints—an often-missed failure mode reported in 4 % of lighting faults [CIBSE, 2021].

Can I keep the installation safe if blue was mistakenly used as a phase earlier?

Yes: de-energise, test, re-assign that conductor to neutral with blue sleeving, then move the phase to a correctly coloured core. Record the change and retest insulation resistance ≥ 1 MΩ at 500 V DC [IEC 60364-6:2016].

Why do some induction hobs bundle blue and grey together for N?

Factory leads often double-up grey and blue when the appliance needs a thicker neutral path; both conductors are crimped into one sleeve and labelled N [Elektroda, jann111, post #17101106]
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