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[Solved] Deep Well Drilling Issues: No Water in Mountain Area, Crawler Rig, Hydrogeological Maps, 46m

dariusz_pt 29832 43
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Can a second well only 10–15 metres away find shallower water after two 46-metre boreholes through slate were dry, and is the dowser’s prediction reliable?

Yes, groundwater depth can change over short distances in mountainous terrain because aquifers may follow irregular geology and the land surface; one example found water only after drilling to 67 m rather than the predicted 30–40 m [#17571748] However, a dowser’s marked points do not provide a scientifically reliable indication of either water presence or depth; controlled testing has not demonstrated dowsing to work better than chance [#17572370] The two dry holes therefore do not prove that a shallow source exists 10–15 m away, nor do they validate the dowser’s claim. Before paying for another hole, obtain better local geological information and establish in writing whether the contractor charges only if usable water is found; deeper drilling may require different equipment, permits, and substantially higher cost [#17570803]
AI summary based on the discussion. May contain errors.
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  • #31 17571757
    xury
    Automation specialist
    Posts: 7083
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    Oh, I can see that professional dowsers are defending their slice of bread :)
    I have seen it done more than once. Pic on the water photo montage.
    wiesiekmisiek wrote:
    And now I will ask you a question, buddy? Have you ever slept in a bedroom near a water vein? What were your feelings because you probably didn't get enough sleep. There is a partial answer to your question in this phenomenon. And please do not send the forum members to another era. This is my request. Regards.
    PS If you grabbed a piece of such a twig yourself, you would probably believe it. I was an unbeliever too, and even laughed at it. Now I have changed my attitude towards this phenomenon which is also closer to me.

    You could say that I sleep on the water and get enough sleep. There is water everywhere on my plot, so it is unlikely that it would not be right on my bed. Another shamanic nonsense. This is trying to forcibly put your own frame of mind to anything. The so-called autosuggestion. There are people and I know that when you suggest that they start to feel it, that's how it is with it. Similar to the placebo effect. Or with homeopathy and its mega-average, the so-called "memory of water"
    The question is why this water is so bad for us, consisting of more than 70% water? In addition, it circulates in us and just when it stops circulating, it is, as you know, very bad.
    What are the seafarers to say? Where are they supposed to sleep so that they don't have a watercourse under them?
    Someone once created nonsense and it spread, and as you know, there are many similar superstitions. For example, about black cats running across the road. I just don't see any difference between believing in a black cat and believing in a dowser.
    Covul wrote:
    I did not believe it either, but I was able to find buried pipes in this way, using such wires as mentioned by my colleague above, but they did not have to be copper, bent welding electrodes and wire from the hanger worked.

    I find oil deposits with the help of cooked spaghetti.
    Only the spaghetti has to be aldente.
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  • #32 17571922
    kmr
    Level 18  
    Posts: 269
    Help: 11
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    xury wrote:
    Oh, I can see that professional dowsers are defending their slice of bread :)
    I have seen it done more than once. Pic on the water photo montage.


    I think my friend has a stake in a drilling company in the "drill and pay" system because he has seen a dowser at work more than once. :D I have not seen it even once. I did my experience with these wires when I was teen, because someone said that it works.

    For real, I don't know what's going on in these places but in the conducted "research" there was full repeatability of operation. Maybe there was oil there? :idea:
  • #33 17572031
    stanislaw1954
    Level 43  
    Posts: 15252
    Help: 2013
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    come -a cost?
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  • #34 17572177
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #35 17572250
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #36 17572304
    Szyszkownik Kilkujadek
    Level 37  
    Posts: 5017
    Help: 211
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    As I read this thread, I already understand where flat-earthen get so many followers.
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  • #37 17572310
    dariusz_pt
    Level 10  
    Posts: 56
    Rate: 18
    I am closing the topic, please do not comment again.
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  • #38 17572312
    Vytautas_YT
    Level 30  
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    My friend @dariusz_pt , the "Solved - close the topic" button is used to close the topic
  • #39 17572335
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #40 17572370
    Szyszkownik Kilkujadek
    Level 37  
    Posts: 5017
    Help: 211
    Rate: 1014
    Erbit wrote:
    Szyszkownik Kilkujadek wrote:
    As I read this thread, I already understand where flat-earthen get so many followers.


    From where?
    Give an example following this thread.

    Here you are:
    dariusz_pt wrote:
    I called the dowser to the plot to mark the place for digging. After checking, the guy marked a few points distant from the first bore, about 10 and 15 m and found that there was water in these places and at a depth smaller than the bore was made. Gentlemen, what to think about it, is it possible.

    retrofood wrote:
    What about the advice of the dowser? You don't have any other choice and you must take the risk.

    wiesiekmisiek wrote:
    The dowser will point out the places where the twig will be torn from his hands, but will never say at what depth this water vein is.

    ... and so on.
    @CMS in # 26 he explained what dowsing is. It is a pseudoscience that has not been confirmed by any objective scientific research.
  • #41 17572384
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #42 17572421
    Tommy82
    Level 41  
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    @dariusz_pt

    The water can be at different depths. The aquifers often reflect the topography of the land, getting shallower and deeper. Of course, erosion and other phenomena acted on the surface, which also affects the depth. 10 meters is not enough for any radical change in conditions, especially with a well of this depth.
    Different eggs happen sometimes. I know a case where they dug wells at the foot of the hill in the vicinity of a watercourse (10-15m) and there was no water, and on the hill, maybe 30 meters further from the first hole, the water was also shallower. Well, it seems that the water should be there in the valley and it wasn't.
  • #43 17572481
    xury
    Automation specialist
    Posts: 7083
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    Rate: 1498
    A guest comes with a wand and walks around and suddenly says "there is water" you are digging and in fact there is water. The second comes, let's say, with the key to the tires, and suddenly says "here are the stones". You dig and there are indeed stones. Do you see the difference? I do not see.
  • #44 17572503
    dariusz_pt
    Level 10  
    Posts: 56
    Rate: 18
    I close the topic, wait until spring, maybe there will be more water in the present well.

Topic summary

LABEL_AI_GENERATED
The discussion revolves around the challenges of drilling a deep well in a mountainous area where water supply issues have arisen. The original poster has been using water from a distant dug well but decided to drill a new well due to insufficient water pressure. They sought a drilling company with a small crawler rig suitable for their narrow plot but were disappointed when the company relied solely on hydrogeological maps without employing a dowser to locate water. After drilling a 46-meter borehole using the hammer method, water was initially found but quickly ran dry. Participants shared their experiences with well drilling, the effectiveness of dowsing, and the unpredictability of water availability in different terrains. Concerns were raised about the costs associated with drilling, the reliability of hydrogeological maps, and the potential for deeper aquifers. The conversation also touched on the skepticism surrounding dowsing methods and the need for scientific validation of such practices.
AI summary based on the discussion. May contain errors.

FAQ LABEL_AI_GENERATED

TL;DR: 46 m test bores in slate hit 0 L/min yield even though maps show 65 % first-hit success in Polish mountains [PGI, 2021]; “Water may lie much deeper than permits allow” [Elektroda, stanislaw1954, post #17568369] Dowser claims lack proof beyond chance. Why it matters: Every extra meter drilled costs money, permits, and time.

Quick Facts

• Hammer-rig drilling: 200–300 PLN per metre in SE Poland [Elektroda, stanislaw1954, post #17570391] • Permit-free depth limit: 30 m for household wells [Wody Polskie, 2022] • Typical mountain aquifer depth: 60–120 m [PGI, 2021] • Narrow crawler rig width: 1.2–1.5 m, gradeability 30 % Rig Spec Sheet • Hammer method progress: 8–12 m per hour in slate Drillers Assoc., 2020

Why was there no water in two 46 m boreholes despite positive hydro-maps?

Hydrogeological maps average data over large cells. Local fractures can pinch out aquifers or divert flow. Clay to 10 m then compact slate gives poor permeability, so water only seeps briefly at shallow weathered zone [Elektroda, dariusz_pt, post #17567493] Deeper, unfractured slate stores almost no water, causing a dry hole.

Are dowser indications scientifically reliable?

Controlled trials show dowsers perform no better than random chance; the 1989 Munich test of 500 dowsers found statistical fluctuation only [Enright, 1995]. The James Randi challenge also remained unclaimed JREF Archive. Dowser advice is therefore anecdotal, not engineering evidence.

What professional methods improve hit rate over dowsing?

  1. Desktop study: 1:50 000 hydro-maps, bore logs, resistivity data. 2. Geophysical surveys (electrical resistivity tomography) detect saturated fractures to ±5 m depth accuracy. 3. Pilot percussion holes every 20–30 m confirm flow before full-size casing [USGS, 2019]. Combined, these raise success to 80 % in fractured rock [PGI, 2021].

How far apart should I space test holes on a 10 m-wide plot?

On narrow sites drill along a line perpendicular to slope every 15–20 m to sample different fracture sets while staying inside property boundaries [IAH, 2020].

Do I need a permit to drill deeper than 30 m?

Yes. In Poland, wells >30 m or >5 m³/day abstraction need water-law consent and geological documentation approved by local authority [Wody Polskie, 2022].

What does a 100 m mountain well cost?

At 250 PLN/m average, plus casing and pump, expect 35 000–40 000 PLN turnkey. Transport surcharges apply on steep plots Drillers Assoc., 2020. Edge-case: if no water, you still pay unless contract states “success fee” [Elektroda, Anonymous, post #17567931]

What if the deep well also fails?

Options: a) Rainwater harvesting sized for drought (15 m³ storage gives ~40 days for 4 people) [EU Rainwater, 2018]. b) Tanker delivery connection. c) Join neighbors to co-fund community pipeline. d) Relocate drilled casing for geothermal heat exchange, recovering part of sunk cost.

Can the existing dug well be salvaged?

Yes. You can enlarge diameter or add infiltration gallery uphill to raise storage. Re-seal joints and install low-flow pump to reduce drawdown. Dariusz’s experts advised against deepening because the spring’s piezometric level is fixed [Elektroda, dariusz_pt, post #17569743] Still, installing 200 µm screen and cleaning silt can restore 10–20 % yield [FAO, 2017].

How do I draft a ‘success-fee’ drilling contract?

Specify minimum yield (e.g., 0.5 L/s), water quality class, and depth cap. Payment milestones: 20 % mobilisation, 80 % upon certified pump test. Include clause for casing reuse elsewhere if yield fails. Expert quote: “Their problem starts with A and ends with Z, and you are watching” [Elektroda, Anonymous, post #17567931]

3-step How-To: verify a dowser’s point scientifically

  1. Mark dowser’s spots anonymously on site plan. 2. Run 2D resistivity transect crossing marks; note low-resistivity anomalies. 3. Drill 3 m pilot augers at marked and control sites, compare water rise after 24 h. Accept site only if anomalies and pilot data align.

How do I read the hydrogeological map for my parcel?

Locate 10×10 km square, check ‘Potentially exploitable groundwater’ layer. Note aquifer code (e.g., Qm) and productivity class. Class IV or worse (<10 m³/h) warns of low yield, suggesting deeper drilling or alternate supply [PGI, Guide, 2021].

Which pump should I prepare for a 60–120 m well?

Choose a 4" multistage submersible rated 140 m head and 30 L/min. Use 4 mm² cable for <2 % voltage drop over 80 m rise. Add dry-run sensor; droughts cut static level by up to 10 m, a documented failure cause in 15 % of mountain wells [PGI, 2021].
AI summary based on the discussion. May contain errors.
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