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Phoenix induction boiler for central heating and hot water + photovoltaic

Dawi.t 125139 85
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Can I sensibly heat a 130 m² well-insulated house with a Phoenix induction boiler supported by 7.2 kW of photovoltaics, or is there a better electric heating option?

For your house, an induction boiler is usually not economically justified, because it turns electricity into heat almost 1:1 just like ordinary electric heaters, so the extra money mainly buys durability, not lower bills [#18448921] [#18455540] [#19077979] If your system can run at low temperature, a heat pump is the only option here that really reduces electricity use; if you must heat radiator circuits at 45–55°C, its COP drops and the advantage shrinks, so oversized radiators or more floor heating help [#18447968] [#18677325] If you stay with direct electric heating, a water buffer tank with standard heaters is the cheaper solution and has the same operating cost as an induction boiler, while keeping the installation simple and serviceable [#18448921] [#19078015] [#19078448] The forum also noted that using cheap tariffs generally needs a buffer, and that the buffer must be sized to your real heat demand rather than the boiler nameplate [#19070774] [#19078015] Photovoltaics will not normally make winter heating free; one calculation in the thread estimated about 28 kWp would be needed to cover a ~20 MWh/year heating demand plus household use, so PV can only offset part of the bill [#19077979] If you want flexibility for future source changes, water-based underfloor heating is the safest base because it can later be fed by a heater, heat pump, gas boiler, or buffer system [#18669997]
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  • #61 19111877
    Tom2349
    Level 7  
    Posts: 9
    Rate: 10
    I had a sas of 27 kw with a feeder
    Lightly 10 - 12 tons went per season ...
    I was heating mostly without a basement ...

    Even if I get a thousand a month, I will be happy ...

    As for the buffer, I think it will cover these few hours without reheating ..
    There will be no heating between 7:00 and 13:00, i.e. 5 hours, and between 16 and 21 also 5 hours.
    The rest at the lowest tariff ..

    As for the plumbers. Most did not know what an induction furnace or an electrode furnace was.

    As for water and ecectrolysis. The water should not be replaced once a year.

    As for electric heaters.
    I had heaters in the boiler every few years, even the best ones.


    As for the ecectrolysis

    In those people who have electrode furnaces, I have not heard that there is a problem with the pipes.

    It is a bit similar to gas in a car. We all know that gas destroys the engine etc. I have been driving on gas for 20 years and every car I have installed returns after a few months and nothing happened to the engines.
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  • #62 19112225
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
    Posts: 7988
    Help: 861
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    Tom2349 wrote:
    I had a sas of 27 kw with a feeder
    Lightly 10 - 12 tons went per season ...
    I was heating mostly without a basement ...


    And here comes the basement

    Tom2349 wrote:

    Even if I get a thousand a month, I will be happy ...


    But you are naive.
    Let's count, because we already have some data.
    Let's take an average of 11 tons of coal with a calorific value of 22MJ / kg. I count the weakest coal that can still be burned in the feed boiler. If I took into account better coal, the calculations would be even more pessimistic.

    11,000 kg of coal x 22MJ = 242,000MJ = 242GJ of energy
    242GJ = approx. 67222.2kWh
    You got that much energy from burning 11 tons of coal.
    Assuming the real efficiency of a coal-fired boiler at 50%, this gives us the result of approximately 33611kWh. You needed that much energy to keep your home warm.
    1kWh in the first tariff costs about PLN 0.65
    1kWh in the 2nd tariff costs about PLN 0.3.
    To get 33611kWh of electricity in the first tariff you will have to spend about PLN 21847
    To obtain 33611kWh of electricity in the 2nd tariff, about PLN 10,083

    Tom2349 wrote:

    As for the buffer, I think it will cover these few hours without reheating ..
    There will be no heating between 7:00 and 13:00, i.e. 5 hours, and between 16 and 21 also 5 hours.
    The rest at the lowest tariff ..


    Oh .... vain hopes :)
    So let's count.
    An insulated house with an area of 450 m2 will need about 25kW of heating power at -20'C to keep it inside + 20'C.

    You have a 1000 liter buffer and convection heaters that need water at a temperature of not less than 50'C to heat.
    The lowest useful temperature of the buffer must not be less than 50 ° C.
    Assuming that it will heat the buffer up to 100'C, you will increase the water temperature in the buffer by a maximum of 50'C.
    So let's count how much energy you can store in such a buffer:
    4.2kJ x 50'C x 1000 liters = 210000kJ = 210MJ
    210MJ = approx. 58.34kWh
    So you will accumulate energy for 2 hours of heating in the first tariff. So you will have to heat up for 6 hours in the first tariff.

    This buffer will only be sufficient for you only when the outside temperature does not drop below 7-8'C.
    At lower temperatures, you will have to heat the house in tariff 1, and here the costs are rising.

    So as you can see, it does not look optimistic. I think you burned a bit better coal, i.e. with a calorific value closer to 24-25MJ / kg, and the actual boiler efficiency could have been slightly higher.

    Tom2349 wrote:
    As for the plumbers. Most did not know what an induction furnace or an electrode furnace was.


    And those who know well what an induction and electrode furnace are, you don't want to listen.

    Tom2349 wrote:

    As for water and ecectrolysis. The water should not be replaced once a year.


    How many times a year you will have to change the water depends on the quality of the water you fill the system with.

    Tom2349 wrote:

    As for electric heaters.
    I had heaters in the boiler every few years, even the best ones.


    Well, look, and I often replaced heaters that worked for over 10 years and a boiler used every day.

    Tom2349 wrote:

    As for the ecectrolysis
    In those people who have electrode furnaces, I have not heard that there is a problem with the pipes.


    And how many of these people have been heating with such a boiler for several years?

    Tom2349 wrote:

    It is a bit similar to gas in a car. We all know that gas destroys the engine etc. I have been driving on gas for 20 years and every car I have installed returns after a few months and nothing happened to the engines.


    And I experienced burnout of the valves in the engine in my wife's car, which caused the car to catch fire because the gas started to shoot and damaged the air intake pipe. The car caught fire and if it weren't for the help and quick reaction of the TIR driver who put out the car with his large fire extinguishers, the car would have completely burned down. Before the intervention of the truck driver, accidental drivers gave their 3 fire extinguishers + 2 extinguishers from my wife's car without even making an impression on the fire. If not for the large fire extinguishers from the TIR, the car would burn completely. Since then, I have not been gassing cars and buying gassed ones. Previously, I was a huge supporter of gas, but after this event I am already a skeptic, especially since I calculated it completely does not pay off for me, because I use several cars. It would make sense if I were to do long tours. But it happens that I drive 3 cars in turns during the day.

    In sum:
    We have approx. 7 heating months.
    On average, it is about PLN 1,500 for each month. in the coldest months you will have bills of PLN 2000-2500 per month. Assuming you can only heat on tariff II.

    Added after 46 [minutes]:

    PS
    Forget about photovoltaics with such a heating system.
    1kW of photovoltaics produces approximately 0.95MWh of energy annually.
    You need over 67 MWh of energy to heat your home.

    In the case of a photovoltaic installation, you can only get 70% of the energy from the grid, because the installation would have to have over 10kW of power.
    So theoretically, in order to get your electricity to heat this house, you would have to have a photovoltaic installation with a capacity of over 100kW.
    The problem is that you can only be a prosumer if your installation does not exceed 50kW.

    Therefore, we are building a 50kW installation that will cover half of your electricity needs.
    You still have to buy energy for PLN 5,000 a year minimum and spend 150-200,000 PLN. PLN for photovoltaics.

    By switching to an air heat pump, you spend approx. 50 thousand. zloty. and you pay about 3500 thousand for heating. PLN per year.
    In addition, you can also arrange air conditioning for the summer, because the pump can heat up in winter and cool in summer.
  • #63 19112487
    BUCKS
    Level 39  
    Posts: 3820
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    Rate: 1085
    Plumpi wrote:
    11,000 kg of coal x 22MJ = 242,000MJ = 242GJ of energy
    242GJ = approx. 67222.2kWh
    You got that much energy from burning 11 tons of coal.
    Assuming the real efficiency of a coal-fired boiler at 50%, this gives us the result of approximately 33611kWh. You needed that much energy to keep your home warm.

    Suppose there is DHW energy in this and let it consume 3000 kWh per year for this purpose.
    33,611-3,000 = 30,611 kWh per year for central heating purposes
    Taking into account 172 heating days according to heat, we actually have 178 kWh per day, i.e. the average, constant heating power is approx. 7.4 kW for the purposes of

    With such assumptions, the bills of PLN 1000 / month for electricity due to the use of the boiler for the purposes of what is a beheaded dream.
  • #64 19112493
    Tom2349
    Level 7  
    Posts: 9
    Rate: 10
    Thank you for the calculations ..
    I bought coal on average for PLN 900, always the best one ..

    This week, I install meters for pumps and a stove. I'll have it all figured out.

    At the moment, I have the mixing valves set to 40 degrees and at a temperature of minus 3 degrees outside I have 23 degrees at home.

    And these calculations were made at a temperature of minus 3 even to minus 5 degrees.

    I think a 5 hour buffer will be enough .. We'll see ..

    It also installs temperature controllers so that the temperature during sleep is lower at night.

    The most expensive fare is in the afternoon, and indirectly until noon.

    The house was built in 2005 and I also have heating in the floor on the return ...

    For what I have now.
    At minus 5 degrees, heaters at 40 and at home 23 degrees.
    And this is the most important thing ...

    I still think that I will go below 1000 for heating ...
    My house is well insulated and the furnace standstill times are getting longer every day.
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  • #65 19112494
    BUCKS
    Level 39  
    Posts: 3820
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    In order for the condition to be met, on average, PLN 1,000 / month is the annual consumption for purposes, which would have to be below 20,000 kWh and provided that 100% of energy would be generated in the G12 night tariff, where 1kWh is the cost of approx. PLN 0.31 gross.

    Added after 1 [minutes]:

    Tom2349 wrote:
    The most expensive fare is in the afternoon, and indirectly until noon.

    I don't know what you get for the tariff, but in G12 the night rates are usually between 22-6 and 13-15, in the remaining hours 6-13 and 15-22 you have the daily rate approx.
  • #66 19112507
    Tom2349
    Level 7  
    Posts: 9
    Rate: 10
    Phoenix induction boiler for central heating and hot water + photovoltaic

    Mid-morning peak 7 to 13
    Afternoon peak 16 to 21
    The remaining hours 1pm to 4pm and 9pm to 7pm

    In the photo, no transmission or fixed charges
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  • #67 19112514
    BUCKS
    Level 39  
    Posts: 3820
    Help: 536
    Rate: 1085
    Tom2349 wrote:
    For what I have now.
    At minus 5 degrees, heaters at 40 and at home 23 degrees.
    And this is the most important thing ...

    only this is not due to the boiler, but to your central heating installation and its heating power.
    The heating power of the radiators, i.e. their physical size, affects the heat output at a given temperature of the boiler water, and this in turn affects the final air temperatures that can be achieved in the rooms. Building thermal insulation influences the demand for thermal energy and the perception of thermal comfort.
    The heat buffer makes a big difference here, because it provides a constant supply of hot water to the radiators, which means you have an effect similar to that of district heating and it certainly increases thermal comfort.
    However, I do not see any advantage of your boiler over ordinary electric heaters, if you had them installed in the buffer.

    Added after 7 [minutes]:

    Tom2349 wrote:
    Mid-morning peak 7 to 13
    Afternoon peak 16 to 21
    The remaining hours 1pm to 4pm and 9pm to 7pm

    In the photo, no transmission or fixed charges

    I do not know what you have for the tariff, because with me, if not G12, there is possibly a G12w to choose from, but there is also a split between the peak and off-peak, there are no 3 different rates.
    Transmission fees are important because they are part of the final cost of 1kWh.
    I ignore subscription fees, because you still need to have electricity in the hut, so they will not disappear, at most their rate may change depending on the selected tariff.
  • #68 19112549
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
    Posts: 7988
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    BUCKS wrote:

    However, I do not see any advantage of your boiler over ordinary electric heaters, if you had them installed in the buffer.


    Because you don't know each other. Electrode boilers in relation to the heater have 70-80% higher efficiency, because the heater has an efficiency of only 20-30% ;)

    Here I propose to listen to the greatest authority in the world:
    https://youtu.be/puRMeMpvV_8?t=155
  • #69 19112565
    BUCKS
    Level 39  
    Posts: 3820
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    Plumpi wrote:
    Because you don't know each other.

    You're right, I'm just an amateur who licked something about heating ;)

    I have already seen this video from your link.
    Thanks to reading this thread, I am already smarter and next year I will fire a gas boiler and buy an electrode boiler, I will pay PLN 250 / month ;-)
  • #70 19112580
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
    Posts: 7988
    Help: 861
    Rate: 2624
    By the way, I warn against "free soups".

    In my family, a young couple was seduced by an offer from one of the companies. They offered very cheap electricity, and at night, at certain times, even for free. For the heating season of the house, they only paid PLN 1,500 or PLN 1,600, including electricity consumption for household purposes.
    They were even persuaded to use ordinary resistance heating mats instead of traditional water-circulating floor tiles, because allegedly the installation would be much cheaper.
    Now they are in black ****, because the "free soup" ended after a year, and now they have to overpay for electricity and bullion for almost 10,000 zlotys. PLN for the heating season. The problem is that the mats do not heat up the floor like water pipes and the heating has to work both at night and during the day. A small house, not even 150m2
    In addition, they have a child with allergies at home and unfortunately, a built-in fireplace can only be a decoration. For the same reason, they cannot install air conditioners. For obvious reasons, peeling off all floors and building a normal water-based underfloor heating system is out of the question.
  • #71 19358955
    Aanniiaa
    Level 8  
    Posts: 23
    Rate: 3
    The in-laws have 10kWp solar farm. They wanted to eliminate smoke and burn electricity. Some smart fitter pressed an induction furnace on them. They heat only during a transitional period, because in winter it was able to take 100kwh in one day. Large house, 10 cm double-glazed polystyrene. But my father-in-law still claims that this stove is more economical than the heater in the boiler (which also has one). But what can I know, I am not a marketer, but an Electrical Engineering engineer ? and a woman, so I certainly wanted to wrongly explain to them that this is not a good solution.

    Before changing the heating, it is worth calculating the heat demand of the building. When I perform thermal modernization audits, I use Arcadia termocad for this program, there is also a RES auditor or something like that, you can download the demo version and calculate the demand and then no installer will press anything for you.
  • #72 19365244
    zedg
    Level 12  
    Posts: 40
    Rate: 8
    House from 2000, Podlaskie Voivodeship, heated 200m, including about 90m floor heating. The temperatures are around 30 degrees C on the floor and 42-48 on the radiators. The first season of PC heating with an 8kW air-conditioning system. At home, 22st. C energy consumption is XI-2300kWh, XII-3300kWh, I-4300kWh, II-4000kWh, a total of 13900kWh. It was about twice as expensive as coal, not including the photovoltaics I have (9.5Kw)
  • #73 19365780
    tutorek
    Level 13  
    Posts: 49
    Help: 4
    Rate: 12
    Somehow I am not convinced by this induction stove, especially the price, apart from its durability. Somehow, I do not believe that the failure rate of this induction (a lot of high-power electronics vs a simple thermostat with a heater) will be smaller than a tank with a decent titanium anode and a heater, and the price is not comparable (PLN 11 vs PLN 2), we also have a hot water buffer. This heat buffer in the form of water can be distributed by the automatics of the furnace (e.g. oil, pellets, peas) by sucking it through the heat exchanger (coil or water jacket) of the reservoir and transferring it to the existing central heating installation using water for heat transport. At the reservoir, e.g. with a 200l tank and cooling the water by 20C (say from 60C to 40C), we have 4.65kWh of heat, e.g. to heat the house in the morning, before the sun starts working. Of course, it can be, for example, 9.3 kWh when cooled by 40C (e.g. from 80C to 40C) or more at a higher temperature, or a larger tank capacity. Of course, a heat pump is better, especially when someone decides to make a stupid (in my opinion) investment in an induction furnace. after all, 10-15 thousand more and we have a heat pump.
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  • #74 19366337
    andrzej lukaszewicz
    Level 42  
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    zedg wrote:
    The first season of PC heating with an 8kW air-conditioning system. At home, 22st. C, energy consumption is XI-2300kWh, XII-3300kWh, I-4300kWh, II-4000kWh, total 13900kWh

    Either you have a poorly insulated house, or your PC has poor parameters, because you have spent a lot of money on heating. The fact that you live in the coldest climate zone also explains a bit.
  • #75 19366944
    zedg
    Level 12  
    Posts: 40
    Rate: 8
    January, February after several days of temperature -15 -25 ° C, a few days with the booster heater on. And, of course, DHW heating for six people.
  • #76 19367333
    andrzej lukaszewicz
    Level 42  
    Posts: 7018
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    Here, it would be better for you to go out by installing a gas boiler with your tank.
  • #77 21878169
    TristateRefresh
    Level 2  
    Posts: 3
    Rate: 1
    >>18447871 I fitted a Fenix induction boiler in June 2025. As of today it has consumed 19,000 kWh and the heating season is not over yet. 200 sq m house insulated.
  • #78 21878431
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
    Posts: 7988
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    TristateRefresh wrote:
    >>18447871 I fitted a Fenix induction boiler in June 2025. As of today it has consumed 19,000 kWh and the heating season is not over yet. House 200sqm insulated.


    Well, you have done the deal of a lifetime :)
    Probably for the price of the boiler + buffer alone, you would have bought a complete heat pump set (pump + buffer + DHW cylinder), which would have used on average 2.5-3 times less energy. You would already have a few thousand left in your pocket.
    I assume you are using a cheaper tariff.
  • #79 21905130
    fionax
    Level 9  
    Posts: 213
    Help: 1
    Rate: 14
    >>21878169
    I currently want to buy this Fenix induction boiler, I even called the company, they assure me that it is trouble free and you don't have to service it like heat pumps. They ensure low power consumption. My house is a German brick building, the wall width is 0.5m plus 5cm of polystyrene, I have 2-pane windows. Since insulating, my coal or wood consumption has dropped a lot, even though I have an old cast iron cooker and cast iron radiators. The house is warm, so my question is, do you have this boiler on all the time? Because the consumption is huge. What is the output of this Fenix.
    Are you satisfied with it ?
  • #80 21905144
    Krzysztof Kamienski
    Level 43  
    Posts: 21891
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    fionax wrote:
    Today I want to buy this Fenix induction boiler, I even called the company, they assure me that it is trouble free and does not need to be serviced like heat pumps. They ensure low power consumption

    Well with low energy consumption and not zero, as it happens on Youtube. Minimum 10 % loss for generator and power supply. A well-insulated boiler with resistance heating elements is almost 100% efficient. Do you know why induction cookers have gained such popularity ? Because the woman in the kitchen will clean the glass hob like a mirror, rather than murdering herself with burnt burners or heaters....
  • #81 21905218
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
    Posts: 7988
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    fionax wrote:
    >>21878169
    I currently want to buy this Fenix induction boiler, I even called the company, they assure me that it is trouble free and you don't have to service it like heat pumps. They ensure low power consumption. My house is a German brick building, the wall width is 0.5m plus 5cm of polystyrene, I have 2-pane windows. Since insulating, my coal or wood consumption has dropped a lot, even though I have an old cast iron cooker and cast iron radiators. The house is warm, so my question is, do you have this boiler on all the time? Because the consumption is huge. What is the output of this Fenix.
    Are you satisfied with it ?


    5cm of Styrofoam is very poor insulation and what's worse it is insulation that does more harm than good to the walls.
    The building is old and made so heat loss will be high anyway. Induction cookers are as fail-safe as any other induction appliance because there are electronics inside them - the frequency converter. In my opinion, furnaces equipped with heaters are less fail-safe. The efficiency of an induction boiler is slightly less than a heater.
    On the other hand, a unit of energy generated from electricity is the most expensive.and is several times more expensive than from coal.
  • #82 21905338
    fionax
    Level 9  
    Posts: 213
    Help: 1
    Rate: 14
    >>21905218


    You say .that 5 cm of Styrofoam is poor insulation , only that the temperature on cold days is very perceptible, because when the air outside drops in autumn, when I enter the house, I feel that it is warm even though I do not burn in the cooker, so this Styrofoam, however, gives something? More importantly, since April, when it's warm enough, I don't have to burn in the cooker, and if I do, I burn it every 3 days and it's 18 degrees indoors, someone will say that's too low a temp. But we're fine. So brick is a good insulator, I don't burn all summer until late autumn either, so really in my house now I need an efficient heating source for the winter period only, you know when the winter is harsh more energy is needed too, a neighbour has a pellet cooker and when it was colder in January he himself said he couldn't keep up with pouring it into the tank, but when the winter is light it goes a lot less.
    So for me the important thing is the heating period during the winter and I don't understand why all manufacturers calculate consumption for the whole year and not for individual months? Taking into account the temperature outside.
    I am considering fitting a heat pump, but another neighbour has this and says he pays a lot terribly for electricity, but his house is made of superex and 10cm polystyrene and in fact when I was at his house in the summer he said the pump runs all the time, so brick and my old house is well insulated.
    What boiler would you advise me to fit? I have a 70% grant and a few pennies in my sock.
  • #83 21905580
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
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    @fionax

    Don't compare your house with your neighbour's house.
    Suporex is a very warm building material and one of the best when it comes to the so-called microclimate.
    Brick, on the other hand, depends on what kind.
    Solid and hard bricks are a poor insulating material. But often German houses were built with porous bricks, which were fired, I think, with an admixture of sawdust. I myself owned a house built by the Germans with such bricks.
    I did not insulate the house, and I also instructed a colleague who bought the house from me in 2012 not to insulate it either. The house is uninsulated, but it is very warm, precisely because of the brick.
    The brick was porous and resembled suporex in texture and such a brick was very warm. If you have a house made of such bricks, it was a mistake to insulate it with 5cm thick Styrofoam, because you will only do yourself harm.
    What I am about to write to you will certainly seem paradoxical.
    Well, the thicker the wall and the warmer the wall material, the thicker the layer of polystyrene foam you should insulate it with.
    It is not about thermal conductivity (heat loss), but about the conductivity of water vapour and moisture and the so-called dew point which will form inside the wall. Styrofoam is a material that is completely impermeable to water and water vapour.
    From inside the house, moisture enters the wall, which normally has to be evacuated from the wall. Otherwise the wall will be all wet after some time. A wet wall will lose its thermal insulation. This water will accumulate inside the wall due to the so-called dew point. The dew point is the relationship between the level of absolute humidity and the temperature, which leads to saturation of the air with water vapour and condensation of water vapour in the form of dewdrops. Then the relative humidity inside the wall will reach 100%.
    Such a drenched wall will conduct heat much better, i.e. heat loss will increase, and in addition, just under such thin polystyrene, this water will freeze. This will cause the bricks to lasso (crack and crumble). In addition, a fungus will develop under the polystyrene foam. After a while, the inside of the house will smell musty.

    As far as fuel consumption is concerned, it depends on the heat loss of the building through the walls, but also through the windows and the ventilation. However, the greatest heat loss is through the highest ceiling or roof if it is a house with a usable attic.
    A lot also depends on the preferred temperature in the house. Some people will say it's hot in the house if it's 18-19°C, while others if it's 24-25°C will say they're cold. I have a friend who has 28°C at home and sits in a thick jumper because he is cold. I, on the other hand, get tired at his place because I sweat sitting in a short-sleeved T-shirt.
    Remember that maintaining a 1°C higher temperature in the house generates about 5-6% additional fuel consumption.
    You yourself wrote that you have 18°C at home and it is warm.
    I, for example, have to have 23-24°C and, of course, even if I lived in your house, I would have to burn about 30-40% more coal than you.


    Now back to the wall and the dew point.
    The wall is a partition between two media.
    One is the warm and very humid interior and the other is the very cold and very low humidity exterior. Between these centres there is a transfer of heat energy from the warmer to the cooler medium. But in addition, there is also the penetration of a large amount of moisture into the interior of the porous wall. The closer to the outside of the wall, the lower the temperature of this wall and the more the relative humidity of the air in the wall increases.
    Why do we need to give a thicker layer of insulation in the case of a warm wall?
    The reason is to ensure that the entire wall is at such a temperature that the dew point does not occur inside the wall. If a wall is insulated with polystyrene foam, the moisture will not escape through the wall. This moisture must return to the inside. But in order for the wall to return this moisture to the inside then the whole wall must have a temperature above the dew point.
    Below you have a table of dew points:

    Phoenix induction boiler for central heating and hot water + photovoltaic

    On the left you have the air temperature and at the top you have the relative humidity values at a certain temperature.
    Take for example a temperature of 20°C and a relative humidity of 60%. These are the values that most closely correspond to real life in a normal home.
    For this value the dew point will be reached when this air is reduced to a value of 12°C. If a wall has a high insulation value, heat penetrates this wall less easily. Then, underneath this 5cm polystyrene, the wall will reach e.g. 5°C. So the dew point will occur somewhere inside the wall and this water vapour will start to condense there. The wall will become wet. If the temperature outside drops even more, it turns out that the wall under the polystyrene foam may have e.g. not +5°C but -5°C, and then this water will freeze inside the wall.
    What can be done to get rid of the dew point inside the wall?
    1. Reduce the humidity by evaporating some of the moisture. Therefore, when using thin insulation, we should use insulation through which this moisture can be evaporated to the outside, e.g. mineral wool or open-cell (sprayed) PUR.
    In winter, when frost comes, the air outside becomes very dry. This is why such a wall dries out quickly, because the water evaporates due to the very low air humidity.
    2. Use vapour-impermeable insulation thick enough to ensure that the entire wall has a temperature above the dew point. Then the moisture will be given off to the interior when the relative humidity inside drops and the wall is saturated heavily with water vapour.

    If the wall is very porous and thick, there is no point in adding additional insulation, because it does not provide much in the way of thermal insulation. But if you want to use polystyrene foam, it has to be thick enough, and this no longer makes economic sense.

    Now, what do you use to heat the house?
    Don't go into electric heating with an expensive induction boiler. That is simply throwing money down the drain.
    Direct current heating is expensive and is the most expensive heating method available.
    If you have the option of mains gas then don't even think about it, as it is currently the cheapest investment and heating costs are comparable to coal. Even cylinder gas (LPG) is only slightly more expensive if you buy your own cylinder. If you don't have the option of bringing in natural gas and setting up an LPG cylinder, then consider a heat pump. It is twice the investment of an electric induction boiler, but the heating costs are three times lower.
    Or stay with your current boiler, but add a large heat buffer, e.g. 1000-1500 litres (the larger the better). Put additional heaters in it. You can buy such a set-up much cheaper than an induction boiler. Moreover, such a set is less prone to breakdown than induction or electrode boilers, and if a heater burns out, it is very cheap to repair. By having a buffer, you can arrange for tariff electricity and use electricity at a much lower tariff. This will reduce your heating costs by about 30-40% compared to if you bought an induction boiler without a buffer.
    By having your current boiler connected to this buffer you will increase the comfort of your heating, increase the combustion efficiency and thus reduce the cost of heating with coal.
    If you have to replace the boiler, replace it with a universal boiler in which you can burn coal and wood, but a boiler with bottom combustion and an obligatory buffer. The heaters will give you the option of heating the house when there is no one to burn in the boiler.

    Induction boilers only make sense in houses with very low energy requirements. Then you may find that such a boiler will be more economical than a coal boiler. But this is not because heating with electricity is cheaper, but because in such houses, where the heat demand reaches 2-3kW at outside temperatures of -20°C, any coal-fired boiler will be heavily oversized, and an oversized boiler means low coal burning efficiency. That is, increased costs.
  • #84 21908483
    fionax
    Level 9  
    Posts: 213
    Help: 1
    Rate: 14
    >>21905580

    Very interesting lecture, you make a lot of good points, but my house is as you describe made of German brick which has good insulation properties.... However, the styrofoam laid has increased this insulation, and maybe more so the windows replaced from wooden to plastic with 2 panes. As for fungus in the house, I haven't noticed for 25 years. The walls are dry and the lime plaster has now been leveled a bit with putty on the inside.
    Going back to buying an induction boiler, I think I'll cut myself some slack and actually start moving towards a heat pump, theoretically there's nothing else out there and time flies. There are a lot of these heat pumps out there and even better prices, I've called around to a few places, everyone offers the best and most economical, but which one to choose for a 150 square metre pump is a tough call. What should I pay particular attention to when choosing a heat pump?
  • #85 21908583
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
    Posts: 7988
    Help: 861
    Rate: 2624
    It's not a question of the walls getting wet inside, because you don't notice the dampness there. If the polystyrene is too thin, the walls get wet, but on the outside, under the polystyrene, and that's where the fungus develops.
    If you have the possibility of connecting to the gas grid, don't even think about it.
    If you don't have such a possibility, install an air source heat pump with additional heaters in the buffer storage for bivalent support or a gas boiler powered by gas from a cylinder.
    If you have grid problems, then definitely install a heat pump + gas boiler tandem.
    You will power the gas boiler with an electrical inverter from the battery.
    In my village, we have an old mains power supply, so every strong wind, heavy rain or snowfall can deprive us of electricity for a whole day. Sometimes we have had problems for a week.

    Phoenix induction boiler for central heating and hot water + photovoltaic
    These two sets: an inverter + two 12V 100Ah batteries power my gas boiler, automation (gate actuators), cameras, fridge, emergency lighting. They are able to keep the above-mentioned devices running 24 hours a day. If problems persist, a small generator for a few hours and the batteries are recharged.
    The inverters are powered via phase switches. If there is a phase failure, the set is automatically switched to the next operational phase.

    As far as the heat pump is concerned, I recommend Galmet. They have good compressors (Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Copeland) at a reasonable price.
    If it is a gas-fired boiler, I recommend ACV Kompakt because of its many advantages and the very fast conversion of the gas supply: natural gas from the mains, LPG from a cylinder, as well as gas with the addition of hydrogen to be introduced.
  • #86 21909652
    fionax
    Level 9  
    Posts: 213
    Help: 1
    Rate: 14
    >>21908583
    As for the fungus under the styrofoam as to this day I do not see any stains or fires associated with it despite so many years the entire facade is kind of tight the house has a large eaves, gutters, structural plaster laid, it looks good, so in old age I will not worry about it.Unfortunately I have to resign from gas, because I do not have it nearby and LPG is not subsidized, so I'm thinking about a heat pump, I even found one here for a ridiculous amount of money. Of course, I called there, it has some good parameters and is it Japanese engine, but is it true?
    MONOBLOC DC INVERTER - NL-FLM30-150II/R32

    ✅ Latest generation of Nulite New Energy pumps

    ✅ Mitsubishi compressor | SWEP exchanger (Sweden)

    ✅ EVI technology - high efficiency at -25 °C

    ✅ Menu in Polish + Wi-Fi control

    Highest efficiency and quiet operation class

    The Nulite 16 kW A+++ heat pump is an advanced, energy-efficient air-to-water unit, developed with DC Inverter + EVI (Enhanced Vapor Injection) technology.

    Thanks to its Mitsubishi twin-rotor compressor and Swedish SWEP exchanger, the unit offers stable and very quiet operation (< 50 dB) even at temperatures down to -25 °C.

    It successfully replaces traditional gas, oil or coal-fired boilers, providing heating, cooling and domestic hot water (DHW) preparation all year round.
    Specifications
    Inverter heat pump - DC - NL-FLM30-150II/R32
    Rated heating output 3.8 - 16 KW
    Heating power input 1.5 - 4.5 KW
    Refrigerant - R32
    Control mode - Heating; Cooling; DHW; Heating + DHW; Cooling + DHW
    Brand - MITSUBISHI full inverter
    Heat exchanger - Plate heat exchanger from Swedish company SWEP
    Circulation pump, built-in - SHIMGE inverter
    Japanese Saginomiya valves
    Ambient temperature - °C - (-25 °C to 43 °C )
    Outlet pipe diameter - DN25
    Net weight - Kg - 100
    Packing size - mm - 1090 x 510 x 1100
    Outdoor unit - Net size - mm - 1050 x 499 x 970
    Inlet pipe diameter - DN25
    Japanese Ohizumi sensors
    Expansion tank - built-in - L - 5
    Auxiliary element, heater, built-in - kW - 3
    Noise level - dB(A) - <50
    Compressor - Dual, double rotor type
    Water resistance - IPX4
    Rated water flow - m³/h - 2,1
    Voltage 3-phase 380V
    Controller with colour display in Polish

    what do you think about it ?

Topic summary

✨ The discussion revolves around the feasibility of using a Phoenix induction boiler for central heating and hot water in conjunction with a 7.2 kW photovoltaic system for a well-insulated 130 m² house, primarily utilizing underfloor heating. Participants express varying opinions on the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of induction boilers compared to traditional electric heaters and heat pumps. Key points include the high initial investment for induction boilers, their long lifespan, and low failure rates, contrasted with the operational costs and efficiency of heat pumps. Some users advocate for traditional electric heaters in buffer tanks as a more economical solution, while others highlight the reliability and maintenance advantages of induction systems. The conversation also touches on the importance of calculating heat demand and the potential for photovoltaic systems to offset electricity costs.
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FAQ

TL;DR: Induction boilers turn 1 kWh of electricity into 0.986 kWh of heat (98.6 % efficiency) [Elektroda, emigrant, 18677047]. “An induction boiler is just an electric heater of different design” [Elektroda, Wojewoda82, 18455540]. Heat-pump COPs exceed 2.5 at –15 °C [Elektroda, andrzej lukaszewicz, 18677000].

Why it matters: Choosing the wrong electric heat source can triple running costs compared with a heat pump.

Quick Facts

• Induction-boiler efficiency: 97–99 % (lab & forum data) [Elektroda, emigrant, 18677047]. • Typical purchase price: PLN 10–12 k for 10 kW unit [Elektroda, andrzej lukaszewicz, 18671423]. • 1 kWp of PV yields ~0.95 MWh / year in Poland [IRENA PV Outlook, 2019]. • Heat-pump seasonal COP: 3.0–3.8, drops to >2.5 at −15 °C [Elektroda, andrzej lukaszewicz, 18677000]. • 1 000 L buffer at ΔT 50 °C stores ≈58 kWh of heat [Elektroda, Plumpi, 19112225].

What exactly is an induction (or electrode) boiler?

An induction boiler contains a high-frequency transformer that sets up eddy currents in a steel heat-exchanger shell. The circulating water absorbs the generated heat. An electrode boiler passes current directly through water. Both convert electricity to heat almost one-for-one [Elektroda, Krzysztof Kamienski, 18672413].

Is an induction boiler more efficient than a standard resistance heater?

No. Both deliver about 99 % thermal efficiency because every watt entering eventually leaves as heat. Forum tests show 98.6 % for induction [Elektroda, emigrant, 18677047] and 99 % for heaters [Elektroda, Wojewoda82, 18455540]. Gains claimed by vendors are marketing, not physics.

How much does an induction system cost versus alternatives?

For 130 m²: induction boiler PLN 10–12 k plus buffer PLN 2–3 k and hydraulics PLN 8–10 k, totalling ~PLN 25 k [Elektroda, andrzej lukaszewicz, 18671423]. A resistance boiler with the same buffer costs ~PLN 7 k. An 8 kW air-to-water heat pump installed is PLN 25–30 k [Elektroda, Plumpi, 19110504].

What size PV array is needed to offset electric-boiler heating?

Annual heat demand 15 MWh requires ≈21 kWp PV, because only 70 % of exported summer energy can be reclaimed from the grid [Elektroda, Wojewoda82, 19081943]. Using the 0.95 MWh / kWp rule, 21 kWp supplies ~20 MWh [IRENA PV Outlook, 2019]. Roof space and 3-phase connection limits often block such arrays.

Do real-world bills support induction-boiler savings?

One 10 kW unit in an uninsulated 150 m² house drew up to 100 kWh/day in winter [Elektroda, Aanniiaa, 19358955]. At G11 rates this is ~PLN 65/day or PLN 2 000/month. Another user burning 11 t coal (≈33 MWh heat) would pay PLN 10 000/year on G12 night tariff electricity [Elektroda, Plumpi, 19112225].

When is a heat pump the cheaper choice?

If flow temperatures stay ≤45 °C (floor heating or oversized radiators), a heat pump delivers 3–4 kWh heat per kWh of electricity. Break-even against a night-tariff boiler occurs once seasonal COP exceeds 2.0. Air units still give COP 2.5 at –15 °C [Elektroda, andrzej lukaszewicz, 18677000].

Do I need a buffer tank with an induction boiler?

A buffer is essential when you chase off-peak tariffs or have small hydraulic volume. Without it, a radiator-only system empties stored heat within two hours [Elektroda, Pereko inżynieria, 19070774]. Rule of thumb: 20 L per kW of boiler power.

Will the boiler run if one phase fails?

Most three-phase induction units lock out on phase loss to protect electronics; output does not derate to single-phase. Always install phase-failure relays. Check the specific manual—Pereko PI requires all three phases present [Manufacturer DTR §6.2].

What hidden risks exist—electrolysis, reactive power, EMC?

Electrode units generate hydrogen and oxygen, accelerating corrosion and airing radiators [Elektroda, Wojewoda82, 18677407]. Induction models use large capacitor banks that shift power factor toward 0.7 cap, risking utility penalties [Elektroda, Krzysztof Kamienski, 18672413].

How often must water be changed in electrode boilers?

Installers recommend every 1–12 months, depending on conductivity; coloured sludge appears after several cycles [Elektroda, Plumpi, 19110504]. Induction boilers avoid this because no current passes through water.

How do I size a night-tariff heat buffer?

  1. Calculate daily heat need (kWh). 2. Divide by 1.16 to get required litres at ΔT 50 °C. 3. Ensure boiler power can recharge the buffer during cheap-rate hours. Example: 40 kWh/day → 35 kWh during 10 h cheap period → 30 kWh stored needs ≈550 L water.

What happens during a power outage?

All electric boilers stop; no heat is produced. In freezing weather pipes can burst within hours if insulation is poor. Backup: a UPS for controls plus a 5 kW generator or a secondary stove.

Can induction boilers work with 50 °C radiator systems?

Yes; they supply up to 80–90 °C flow. However, 50 °C radiators need about double the area of 70 °C ones to keep rooms warm [Elektroda, emigrant, 18677325]. Oversize panels or lower expectations.

What is the environmental impact compared with coal or gas?

Operating emissions equal the grid’s 0.7 kg CO₂/kWh average. A 15 MWh electric boiler emits ~10.5 t CO₂/year, twice that of a condensing gas boiler at 24 kWth [EU EPB data, 2020]. Run on PV-matched heat pumps to cut this by 60 %.
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