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Phoenix induction boiler for central heating and hot water + photovoltaic

Dawi.t 116871 75
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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 18447871
    Dawi.t
    Level 5  
    Hello, I am looking for the opinion of people in the topic and not those who seem to be. I am waiting for the replacement of the old soot and I thought to invest in a phoenix induction boiler supported by 7.2kw photovoltaics, I have a house of about 130 m2 80% is underfloor heating, other radiators, the house is quite well insulated. Does such a solution make sense, an induction boiler seems to be the most economical when it comes to electric stoves, but there are very few opinions on the Internet, so please help or other products. And one more gas stove is not just an electrician.
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  • #2 18447968
    Michal_WWL
    Level 26  
    An induction furnace is such an ordinary resistance heater?
    I am undergoing a similar operation myself. From coal to electrics. I chose a heat pump, air-to-water. Efficiency greater than that of a typical electric heater.
  • #3 18448921
    Wojewoda82
    Level 28  
    He probably means the electrode boiler. There are no miracles here. Whether it will be an electrode / induction boiler or an ordinary heater, e.g. in a buffer, the efficiency is practically the same. This and this transforms 1kW of electricity into about 999W of heat.

    If you have a lot of space for, for example, a buffer in the basement and a lot of space on the roof and less cash, ordinary 3 heaters in the buffer are enough. And if you have more hay, you can get into the heat pump.

    At the same time, the photovoltaic does not necessarily have to cover the entire electricity demand (in the variant with heaters, without a PC). It is enough for it to do so in an expensive day tariff and something in the night.
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  • #4 18453796
    Bemx2k
    Level 11  
    Dawi.t

    Look for information on: Electrode / induction heaters connected to
    Reactive power compensator. You might be surprised.

    Just be careful because the forum is a hell of people from PGE and Tauron They will discourage you from this type of curiosity.
  • #5 18455540
    Wojewoda82
    Level 28  
    I do not work in Tauron, PGE or INEA. I also don't believe in perpetual motion.

    There is something like E = mc2 (invented this by a famous physicist, long dead). Energy doesn't come out of nowhere. If the production of energy consists in the fact that in one place there is something, e.g. electricity, generated heat (and it comes directly from electricity), then the amount of energy put into the system equals the energy coming out of the system. So 1kWh of electricity equals a maximum of less than a kWh of heat (because in addition to heat, energy from electricity also changes, for example, into electromagnetic radiation)

    It's just like an incandescent lamp, only a fraction of the energy consumed by an incandescent lamp turns into light (a slight%) and most of it is heat (usually an unwanted side effect). Hence, among others, much better energy efficiency of fluorescent lamps or LEDs, which produce less unnecessary heat and more light.

    Even heat pumps "producing" from 1kWh of electricity consumed, for example 4kWh of heat, do not break the scheme. Because the electricity in the heat pump is not directly used to produce heat. The heat comes from the transport of thermal energy (for example 4KWh) from the lower source (e.g. from the outside air) to the upper one (for heating, e.g. DHW). As long as the transport of this heat costs much less than the direct generation of heat from electricity, the compressor works. Only when the heat transfer becomes unprofitable due to the low efficiency of heat transport (too large difference in the temperature of the lower and upper source) and increased wear of components, the heaters are turned on.

    An induction / electrode boiler is not a heat pump. It does not transport heat from one place (e.g. outside a building) to another (inside), it generates it directly from electricity. It is a synonym for an electric heater, but of a different design. And it practically does not differ from it in terms of efficiency in converting electricity into heat, it also has some uninteresting requirements, which are its disadvantage.

    Apart from electrode boilers and heaters, the same segment, where up to 99.9% of the electricity consumed is converted into heat, includes convector heaters, farels, heating mats and cables, and infrared panels.
  • #6 18600055
    emigrant
    Level 29  
    I also throw out a solid fuel boiler in summer and replace it ... Well, I don't know yet, but I'm also thinking about an induction boiler, but from Pereko https://www.pereko.pl/seria-%CF%80.html buffer from 600-700 liters. 9 kWp solar farm with 8 kW inverter. My problem is that the installation is 100% radiator (copper pipes + aluminum radiators). Heat pump torture at a parameter of 45 degrees or higher, the heating is almost 1: 1, the COP will be below 2. When frosts come, and there will be winters with frosts, you need to support yourself with resistance heaters. Somehow I do not see the PC in the radiator system. You can also oversize the radiators as much as possible - for some it works poorly, you need a radiator of 3-4 meters in length to heat on a low parameter.
    The service life of an induction boiler is several dozen years. The failure rate is practically zero, because the boiler is as simple as the construction of a flail - there is nothing to break down here. However, a failure of the heat pump is just a problem.
    Any of you have any experience with induction boilers? Any specific disadvantages? Certainly I will not mount any Russian Galan type electrodes.
  • #7 18621656
    Tatrowy
    Level 2  
    I am trying to build a house and I am also considering an induction boiler + photovoltaics or an eco-friendly stove. The heat pump is a big cost and this "helicopter" behind the house with pipes in the ground and refrigerant exchanges do not speak to me ... I wonder if the induction or the heater in the buffer? So far, nothing concrete can be seen from the posts. One company recommended me electric mats and infrared panels instead of normal floor heating and heaters in the attic. I am completely green in these novelties, and every now and then someone negates something and scares that it is wrong that it is wrong. The costs are not small of such solutions and it would be good if someone from his experience could write something factually here.
    When it comes to photovoltaic panels, all companies claim that they will cover my electricity needs and I will not pay the bills only for the transmission. Here is also a request for the opinion of someone who has such panels, does not actually pay for electricity?
    So far, the most proven solution seems to be an eco oven with a feeder and although there is a lot of work with it, there are definitely fewer unknowns ...
  • #8 18668140
    Michal_WWL
    Level 26  
    emigrant wrote:
    I also throw out a solid fuel boiler in summer and replace it ... Well, I don't know yet, but I'm also thinking about an induction boiler, but from Pereko https://www.pereko.pl/seria-%CF%80.html buffer from 600-700 liters. 9 kWp solar farm with 8 kW inverter. My problem is that the installation is 100% radiator (copper pipes + aluminum radiators). Heat pump torture at a parameter of 45 degrees or higher, the heating is almost 1: 1, the COP will be below 2. When frosts come, and there will be winters with frosts, you need to support yourself with resistance heaters. Somehow I do not see the PC in the radiator system. You can also oversize the radiators as much as possible - for some it works poorly, you need a radiator of 3-4 meters in length to heat on a low parameter.
    The service life of an induction boiler is several dozen years. The failure rate is practically zero, because the boiler is as simple as the construction of a flail - there is nothing to break down here. However, a failure of the heat pump is just a problem.
    Any of you have any experience with induction boilers? Any specific disadvantages? Certainly I will not mount any Russian Galan type electrodes.


    Can you explain what heat pump has COP 1 at 45C?
  • #9 18669997
    Wojewoda82
    Level 28  
    If you want to make a floor tile, make it water-based one way or another. By installing the heating mats, you are immediately doomed to electricity. And with a water floor heating, you can power it from an electric or electrode boiler, a buffer with heaters, a heat pump, a gas or coal boiler. When it suddenly comes out that, for example, heating with electricity is not very economical, it is easier to replace the heat source without ripping the floors.

    Photovoltaic panels can always cover 100% of the electricity demand for heating. But if you have a heat pump, you need e.g. 8000kW for central heating and hot water plus 2000kW for household electricity. For this you choose the number of photovoltaic panels. But when you heat with 100% efficiency electricity, suddenly the electricity for heating purposes increases from 8000kW to e.g. 18000kW (plus 2000 for household purposes) And it may turn out that the panels on the roof will not fit. Or you will be left with the option of covering only the day tariff with photovoltaics and you will pay for the night tariff. So then the electricity won't be free.
  • #10 18670212
    Tatrowy
    Level 2  
    Thanks for the answer. :)
    I think that floor heating + induction + panels + buffer + fireplace with a water jacket will give some level of effective safety ;)
    So far, this is probably the best option.
    Thanks again - I will, however, look here because maybe something else will appear ...
  • #11 18671423
    andrzej lukaszewicz
    Level 41  
    Tatrowy wrote:
    Thanks for the answer. :)
    I think that floor heating + induction + panels + buffer + fireplace with a water jacket will give some level of effective safety ;)
    So far, this is probably the best option.
    Thanks again - I will, however, look here because maybe something else will appear ...

    A heat pump is expensive, and your ideas are cheaper? Have you seen the prices of these induction boilers? 10-12 thousand !!!!? Buffer 2-3 thousand, fireplace with a jacket, insert 4-6 thousand, hydraulic approaches, piping, heat exchanger, pumps, control, labor 8-10 thousand. So far, it is 25-30 thousand and you are still heating with 1: 1 electricity, or you are flying with wood and ash to the living room!
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  • #12 18672368
    Tatrowy
    Level 2  
    Induction boiler 12700 (Polish production), fireplace with a jacket 4500, buffer 2000 I do the work myself and I have the comfort that the house is warm and the water in the boiler is hot, besides, I want a fireplace, so I actually add 1500 and not 4500 additional equipment is about 1000, so the total is 17200 ;) . An air heat pump is about 26,000 and at -20 it's hard, and the water in the boiler? I like warmth and fire in the fireplace (it's so nice especially on winter evenings) so if I don't come up with a more sensible solution, I will stay with this set. best regards
  • #13 18672413
    Krzysztof Kamienski
    Level 43  
    I have no problems with heating :D , but I will still ask what is the attractiveness of an induction boiler? The fact that with probably 60% energy efficiency, or even less due to the principle of operation - a WCZ generator and an inductor (coil) heating the water, at the same time has a powerful capacitor bank at the input, which causes a shift of cos ? in the capacitive direction, in other words we are changing the nature of the network load with all of this ........ hmm. consequences? :D Tauron ... :D
  • #14 18672918
    andrzej lukaszewicz
    Level 41  
    What about pipes, heat exchanger, additional pumps, expansion vessel, boiling protection? You will see how much brass, valves, fittings, copper cost. Add to your calculations at least 5,000. For 130 m you need a 5-7 kW heat pump, which costs less than 15 thousand. For this DHW tank for 2500 + e buffer for 2 thousand. Plastic pipes, all in one place in the boiler room. Air pump maintenance costs will be lower than gas heating.
    I do some editing, I know how much people pay.

    Added after 2 [minutes]:

    I do not understand why you want to throw 12 thousand instead of 2.5 on a good kospel with heaters, after all, the power needed for your building is constant, and the energy meter will show the same consumption for both boilers, or more with the induction one, as Kol described it well Kamieński.
    As for the cost of subsequent repairs and service, it is known in advance what will be more expensive.
  • #15 18674991
    Tatrowy
    Level 2  
    As I wrote before, I plan a fireplace anyway. Heat pump for 15 thousand. ? I live in Silesia and it is only possible to use air, and as far as I know, its performance in larger frosts is poor, so I thought about induction. You say here, however, that this is a bad idea. Do you have any experience with induction? I only have an induction cooker since 2011 and it's amazing ... that's why I thought about such a boiler for what.
  • #16 18677000
    andrzej lukaszewicz
    Level 41  
    The efficiency of the electric boiler, whatever it is called, reaches 99%, and the heat pump efficiency 200-400%. At -15 PC it has a COP> 2.5, average seasonally 3.5.
    The average temperature of the heating season is +3.5
    degree, and in the last winters it will be 5 degrees in the black. Probably more in Silesia.
    In summer, you heat DHW with a COP above 4, i.e. instead of 4 KW of the heater, the device heats up with an electric power consumption of about 1 kW
    As for these wonderfully described induction boilers, I tried to find data on their efficiency and did not find it on the manufacturer's website. I bet it is much lower than an electric boiler with heaters, which is 99%
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  • #17 18677047
    emigrant
    Level 29  
    Pereko declares 98% efficiency - here DTR https://www.pereko.pl/assets/files/dtr-%CF%80.pdf Probably the only boiler that has full documentation, descriptions, etc. The rest of the companies that supposedly have induction boilers which look like a hydraulic coupling zero data about this boiler. Everything hidden and mysterious. In any case, that's my impression.
    As for the induction boilers themselves, there are no miracles - heating 1: 1. There is no COP here. The difference is that it is not resistance heating with a heater. Service life of induction boilers "supposedly" several dozen years. From the electric side of such boilers and the principles of their operation, someone described it nicely on the Sepa or ISE forum.
  • #18 18677219
    andrzej lukaszewicz
    Level 41  
    The efficiency of the electric boiler, whatever it is called, reaches 99%, and the heat pump efficiency 200-400%. At -15 PC it has a COP> 2.5, average seasonally 3.5.
    The average temperature of the heating season is +3.5
    degree, and in the last winters it will be 5 degrees in the black. Probably more in Silesia.
    In summer, you heat DHW with a COP above 4, i.e. instead of 4 KW of the heater, the device heats up with an electric power consumption of about 1 kW
    As for these wonderfully described induction boilers, I tried to find data on their efficiency and did not find it on the manufacturer's website. I bet it is much lower than an electric boiler with heaters, which is 99%
  • #19 18677325
    emigrant
    Level 29  
    You what, are you in a loop? Heat pumps only make sense if someone has an underfloor heating system and heats at a low parameter. Not to mention that the house must be insulated. Use a heat pump to heat the radiators at 50-55 degrees Celsius throughout the winter ... In severe frosts, regardless of whether the next winters will be frosty or not, such a PC will not have a COP 2.x. next to radiators. Not only that, the booster heaters will turn on. Imagine that not everyone has a floorstand and will never be.

    You can heat radiators with a heat pump, but you need to oversize the radiators. Ideally, it should be low-temperature C33 and this way you can go down to 40-45 degrees. It's still not a floorstand ...
  • #20 18677407
    Wojewoda82
    Level 28  
    https://matex.net.pl/kociol-indukcyjny-pereko
    Quote:
    During the operation of the induction boiler ?, gases dissolved in water are intensively expelled through the vents. They are mostly:

    oxygen (corrosive to metals),
    hydrogen (reaction product between aluminum and copper),
    carbon dioxide (creates carbonic acid),
    air (causes metal corrosion),
    others in smaller amounts.


    So, after all, electrolysis?
  • #21 18677549
    Krzysztof Kamienski
    Level 43  
    @ Wojewoda82 No, an induction cooker :D
  • #22 18853735
    Rafgrz316
    Level 11  
    Hello
    I have a question and a dilemma. I installed a 9.96 MWh panel. I have already produced 6.0 MWh since February. I am trying to install electric heating to use this electricity. Some say install an air heat pump and others advise Pereko Pi 10 induction furnace or something similar. From what I've read, Pereko is almost failure-free and heat pumps require replacement of some elements every few years, and it's not cheap. I am looking for some calculations on the forums, but I could not find anything. I am asking for some sensible hints and advice. House about 100m from 2006, rather well insulated, carpentry replaced with a 3-shaft window, inhabited by 2 people. I am interested in heating and DHW for electricity.
    I would be grateful for any suggestions and advice.
  • #23 18853782
    sq9fmc
    Level 29  
    6kWh is enough for half a day of using el energy in a typical home.
    Above you have written what and how, so you have to decide for yourself.
    The heat pump is second to none compared to inventions under miraculous names.
  • #24 18918554
    kosmos99
    Level 38  
    What is the point of spending over PLN 20,000 on the Pereko induction boiler? For which a buffer will be needed anyway if we want to heat in a cheaper tariff,
    Not better to install heaters in the buffer for a few hundred zlotys?
    The effect is the same, and the cash registers are over twenty times less.
  • #25 18962312
    cacadooo
    Level 10  
    emigrant wrote:
    You what, are you in a loop? Heat pumps only make sense if someone has an underfloor heating system and heats at a low parameter. Not to mention that the house must be insulated. Use a heat pump to heat the radiators at 50-55 degrees Celsius throughout the winter ... In severe frosts, regardless of whether the next winters will be frosty or not, such a PC will not have a COP 2.x. next to radiators. Not only that, the booster heaters will turn on. Imagine that not everyone has a floorstand and will never be.

    You can heat radiators with a heat pump, but you need to oversize the radiators. Ideally, it should be low-temperature C33 and this way you can go down to 40-45 degrees. It's still not a floorstand ...


    I also wanted heaters for the POC, but the price of those adapted to the pump is a massacre. But the induction boiler interested me anyway.
  • #26 19070162
    Pereko inżynieria
    Level 6  
    As a manufacturer of induction boilers, we are installing PI boilers for the third heating season. We offer individual advice on the selection of a boiler for a specific building, its energy efficiency coefficient [kw / m2 / year], we also help in estimating this coefficient, we take into account the number of people using DHW. Based on the input data, the boiler power is selected. We also estimate operating costs. We know from experience that not always the buffer tank will fulfill its function.
  • #27 19070496
    kosmos99
    Level 38  
    Pereko inżynieria wrote:
    not always the buffer tank will fulfill its function.


    But it is necessary if we want to use energy in the cheaper tariff zone.
    On your website you propose the G12 tariff by writing about the twice lower price. How to use the advantages of this tariff without using a buffer?

    Pereko inżynieria wrote:
    We offer individual advice on the selection of a boiler for a specific building, its energy efficiency coefficient [kw / m2 / year], we also help in estimating this coefficient, we take into account the number of people using DHW. Based on the input data, the boiler power is selected.


    From what I can see, these boilers are only available in three power options: 3.2 10 and 21kW, so with such a distribution there is not much to think about and what to calculate.
  • #28 19070774
    Pereko inżynieria
    Level 6  
    If 100% of the installation is equipped with heaters, then the CO buffer will be discharged quickly, and thus it will not function as an energy accumulator. Then it is also worth considering the G12 or G12W tariff, because you can control the operation of the boiler so that it works at cheaper hours per kWh. But of course the boiler will also turn on at other times depending on the needs (set parameters). This solution can reduce operating costs compared to the G11 tariff.

    And when it comes to the three power of the boiler, the selection is made on the basis of the building's heating surface [m2], domestic hot water heating, etc. It is not an obvious and simple matter for everyone, so we provide advice.
  • #29 19070862
    kosmos99
    Level 38  
    Approx.
    Let's compare the use of the Pereko 10kW induction boiler with a buffer for a tank with installed heaters with a total power of 10kW.
    What rewards about twenty times higher investment cost when using your boiler?
  • #30 19071208
    BUCKS
    Level 39  
    Pereko inżynieria wrote:
    If 100% of the installation is equipped with heaters, then the CO buffer will be discharged quickly, and thus it will not function as an energy accumulator.

    it is necessary to adjust the buffer capacity so that it will be sufficient for heating only during the night tariff, if not throughout the heating season, then at least for the greater part.
    The problem may be the physical availability of space for such a buffer and the necessary equipment.
    In an insulated building, adjusting the radiators to the 55/45 boiler water for frost -20 is not a major problem, so you can also do something with the radiators.

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of using a Phoenix induction boiler for central heating and hot water in conjunction with a 7.2 kW photovoltaic system for a well-insulated 130 m² house, primarily utilizing underfloor heating. Participants express varying opinions on the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of induction boilers compared to traditional electric heaters and heat pumps. Key points include the high initial investment for induction boilers, their long lifespan, and low failure rates, contrasted with the operational costs and efficiency of heat pumps. Some users advocate for traditional electric heaters in buffer tanks as a more economical solution, while others highlight the reliability and maintenance advantages of induction systems. The conversation also touches on the importance of calculating heat demand and the potential for photovoltaic systems to offset electricity costs.
Summary generated by the language model.
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