Small 12v Auto circuit for on/off switch – Newbie help

Ecactly my point as well How on earth do you prove this very interesting point See again arguably you only have change one component implement a slightly different method, change or mofify the pcb for that matter in some way and effectivley Its an entirely different design wether the circuit changes is neither here no there The fact is you have re introduced a new design and theoritically you have But who owns that patent It doesnt have to be the circuit it could simply be the cosmetics or as Earl says the code within Still its interesting to see what people think As I said who actually owns anything anymore in wake of the net being placed into public hands or for that matter privacy on the net Since you utilise a public highway so to speak your information, designs etc are no longer private or confidential. Meaning of course that any information what ever you do eg design, code automatically becomes public and is no longer copywriteable Even if were the above mentioned points would make this invalid

You might even go as fas as to define this further in saying any comunicating device wether you choose to transmit information or not which is connected to a public network at any point in times renders your information which you considered to be private or confidential is deemed invalid

Mark,
Respectfully I suggest you are wrong on several points.
As I have said I am no expert although I have had some exposure to many of the principles that govern decisions on this topic.
1) Your comment: "you only have change one component implement a slightly different method, change or modify the pcb for that matter in some way and effectively Its an entirely different design "
This is plain wrong, there is plenty of case law that effectively sets the rules for how much change is necessary for any "art" to be judged "new".
The general test (my understanding) is if a jury or ordinary people was shown the new art & the old would they be convinced it was genuinely new? The advice I always received was: make sure you have a design pathway & can show the development of the design & its testing & modification. Then at least you have something to justify your "new" claim.
2) Your comment: "But who owns that patent It doesn't have to be the circuit it could simply be the cosmetics or as Earl says the code within". Probably wrong also ( your comment is not entirely clear) cosmetics has nothing to do with patents. Patents apply only to new unique methods, techniques, or products employing them. I would judge that a unique string of complex code not easily developed as a matter of routine might well qualify for "protection" by copyright.
3) Your comment: "Since you utilise a public highway so to speak your information, designs etc are no longer private or confidential." Obviously if material is posted on the net it is no longer confidential. That's no different than a patent application where equally the "art" becomes non- confidential. The point about protection is that you no longer need confidentiality. Assuredly if you post material in the public domain BEFORE seeking protection then you are genuinely on your own & being first is probably the only advantage you retain. I gather Ford do not bother with patents & just aim to be rapid implementors.

Thanks for the comments Peter applogies if this isnt quite correct

What Im really aiming at is

Wouldnt it be nice if eeweb were to look at this with a view to protecting the people who do post designs on this site

Also with a view to helping those who do an awfull lot of hard work for no renumeration what so ever and attempting to back up these people with a view to gaining runemeration which to all intensive puposes could be put or if you like a proportion of which, to good use eg raising funds for educational institutions so that thier is benefit set aside for those in need

It would also be nice if when you do come acoss something that is good to turn this into a marketable product and in certain cases to work with people who place effort into this to work jointly on taking out a patent where possible

That would be an excellent move dont you think not just for eeweb but also for bussiness in general

Look forward to your comments suggestions on this

Sincerely

Mark Harrington

Hi Mark all files you need all pcb plots, code, drawing etc are now on the site
@ www.eeweb.com/project/mark_harrington

Download the projectNotes.zip file

UNZIP FILES TO HARDVDRIVE

Open the Index page everything contained plus explanations the lot

Good luck with it hope this helps you

Mark Harrington

Hi Mark,

Sorry for the slow reply, been away and busy with children

Thank you for all the assistance so far it is much appreicated, from what you have said the PCB can be programmed in a different way ?

I'll try and upload a new diagram later as I want to try and tweak the way the switch works, mainly to default its settings in a different way and now Illuminate the led on the swtich .

Basically it will be :

Default to :No power through put , no LED Illuminated on switch
When switched on : Power through put and LED on switch Illuminated
Auto reset back to default,

there should be four wires coming from the PCB to the factory switch, two for power , two for the LED within the switch ? the only thing I can not tell is what voltage the switch will take , more so for the LED as I can power this up via the multimeter when checking for continuity .

Hope I have made sense,

Thanks Mark.

Hi mark all done for you already The design plus code plus pcb layout everything you need all on the projects page pal I even have one made sitting here ready to go tested etc first class little project this was Even I learnt from building and coding this

All done mark I even have one made sitting at home all tested all ready to go works like a dream

Mark

HI Mark,

Thank you .. really appreciate the writ up, the one thing I spotting on your 1st picture was only 4 wires, I'm assuming feeds in and out, with a further two feeds to the trigger switch,

Is it possible to change the on board LED to a pair of wires to feed the LED on the switch ?

Hope that makes sense ?

Thanks Mark.

Hi Mark

I've updated the diagram, which I hope captures the LED illumination within the swtich and slight change to the default running, but whiles I was doing it , it suddenly dawned on my about each time the Canbus trigger feed switches off over 6mph the PCB would reset back to default. which is fine.

"Default to :No power through put , no LED Illuminated on switch
When switched on : Power through put and LED on switch Illuminated
Auto reset back to default"

but It got me thinking ahead for a phase two . what if the PCB was powered from the ignition, so if the feed was passed through and the switch LED was illuminated thats how it stayed and remove the auto reset ,this would power the swtich LED and stop the PCB being reset each time the trigger feed cutting out , as the trigger feed from the canbus trigger would cut in and out at 6mph ?

Its not a big change but something that would make it more OEM than phase 1 ??

What do you think ?

Thanks Mark .

Hi Mark,

Wow! Did you fabricate the PCB yourself, or have it done by a PCB house, and if the later, who did you use?

Hi Mark

im a bit confused with explanation on reset via canbus Lets see if I understand this

Power into pcb fed from sometype of canbus controled module Over 6mph auto resets hence no power into pcb

TO Eliminate problem feed input 12volt direct from ignition hence pcb power in always present

Leds for toggle switch ie relay power out simply indicate relay on or off Led indication is on pcb anyway already built in

So yes wire direct to battery with ignition sense enters ic and is extra feature but needs to be built in No worries not a problem with this can be done slight alteration on code and inclusion of input space already set aside for this

Question is my interpretation correct if so not a problem at all however need to see current switch as switch is simply push button momentary contact external switch at the moment Would this present any problems if so please advise

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark,

If I try and work it backwards for you, it may help explain ?

Part 1) Parking sensors
Has 4 feeds, Ignition, Earth , Power from Reverse light , Power from Brake light,

I found the front sensors working off the brake light a great pain, press the break at any speed and the front sensors powered up for 10 seconds. beeping down the motorway was fun to say the least !

This took me on to :

Part 2) Canbus interface
Has 3 feeds and one output, 12V, Earth, CanHi from the vehicles LAN feed. Speed triggered output below 10kMh. (this is a negative feed so loops in to a Negative to Possitive relay so now have 12V output below 10kph)

Basically the front sensors now work below 10kmp (then plus 10 seconds) but really wanted to get it to OEM level and being able to switch off/on the front sensors.

Part 3) OEM control switch
This is where we are now, the switch is the factory OEM switch, connects via a 10 pin IDC socket, I have found the two feeds for the toggle switch and two feeds for the the built in LED. I'm still looking for the backlight but that I can do after installation and take the feed from the Canbus unit or another swtich .

Ideally to make it 100% OEM.

It needs to swtich off/on the feed to the front sensors, while the switch is on and allowing the speed based 12V to pass through the red LED on the switch needs to be Illuminated , this will show the front sensors are working

then I got to think , each time the speed based12V cuts out the the PCB would reset, could be a case of keep pressing the switch on/off etc, so thought if we introduced a 12V ignition to keep the PCB working while the car was on and the LED on the switch Illuminated and wouldnt get switched off every time the Canbus interface stopped working about 10kph. always being able to tell l if the speed based 12V is being passed through or not , the only difference would ne the auto reset would need to be removed and the PCB would need to stay at its last know point was by introducing a new 12v feed, you could have the best of both options then, controll over the switch even when the 12V input feed has dropped off above 10kph ? and it also gives a secondary option for 12V trigger feed to the sensors via an igniation if canbus interface failed ? IE looping the 12V to both input feeds as you will het total control from the PCB anyway

Hope that makes sense, I've attached details of the canbus interface. it may give a some back ground in to it ?

catch up soon. (hope it made sense) thanks Mark.

Hi mark checked diagram More questions
When you brake sensors power up at which stage if speed falls below 10kmh then beeps if speed above 10kmh then no beep but led goes off, relay off no supply to sensors
if below 10kmh led stays on relay energises

Yes /No

Next question if you disable sensors altogether does the unit provide any switching to pin 12on module at all if not will have to use manual switching if yes then we can use switching pulse pin 12 of module operation of relay then automatic

Yes/ No

Is the switching pulse negative pulse or positive pulse on pin 12 ie negative active high to zero volts, positive pulse from zero volts to plus 12volts

Yes / No


PURPOSE OF RELAY IS. .....
To disable sensors so we dont get beep and extinguish led but when speed above 10khm must reactivate sensors in otherwords switch relay in and re illuminated led

Yes or No

12 volt feed to pcb comes from pin13 0n module no need to worry about 12 volts not being fed to pcb
ignition sense to tell pcb to initialise easy this comes from pin 11 control module

pin 12 forms switching pulse into pcb advising if over 10kmh inwhich case relay energised else below 10kmh in which case denergise switch of led

Correct Yes or No


Finally which can bus system can1or can2 and would you be able to get commands from mnfr these are donated in hex in the form 0xAA etc etc

If so we could adopt an entirely different approach to this problem

wait for you answer to above
Mark

Hi Mark,

When you brake sensors power up at which stage if speed falls below 10kmh then beeps if speed above 10kmh then no beep but led goes off, relay off no supply to sensors
if below 10kmh led stays on relay energises

Yes /No A) I disconnected the wire to the brake light , I now only connect to Pin 12 . so sub 10kph I get 12V output to feed the front sensors.

Next question if you disable sensors altogether does the unit provide any switching to pin 12on module at all if not will have to use manual switching if yes then we can use switching pulse pin 12 of module operation of relay then automatic

Yes/ No A) Still wanted Pin 12 to provide power feed to front sensors, but also the LED PCB to stay live if the 12V feed is passed through, even if the feed from Pin 12 has dropped because its over 10kph. I guess an additional 12V feed will be required to power the PCB regardless of Pin 12 state

Is the switching pulse negative pulse or positive pulse on pin 12 ie negative active high to zero volts, positive pulse from zero volts to plus 12volts

Yes / No A) as standard its negative, but I have added a simple relay to convert negative to possitive. (see new diagram)

PURPOSE OF RELAY IS. …..
To disable sensors so we dont get beep and extinguish led but when speed above 10khm must reactivate sensors in otherwords switch relay in and re illuminated led

Yes or No A) not really, ideally, PCB should stop Pin 12 feed from powering the front sensors, but the PCB needs to stay powered or at least the LED on the switch needs to be illuminated when the relay is open to pass 12V from Pin 12, so even is there is no voltage from Pin 12 becuase the speed is above 10kph and the relay isopen to allow throughput the LED should stay on all the time with the car ignition and default back to the same state once the car has been switched off and then back on.

12 volt feed to pcb comes from pin13 0n module no need to worry about 12 volts not being fed to pcb
ignition sense to tell pcb to initialise easy this comes from pin 11 control module

pin 12 forms switching pulse into pcb advising if over 10kmh inwhich case relay energised else below 10kmh in which case denergise switch of led

Correct Yes or No A) Looks like that can work as long as the swithc LED can stay off even if pin 12 has no output

Finally which can bus system can1or can2 A) dont know TBH

and would you be able to get commands from mnfr these are donated in hex in the form 0xAA etc etc A) Will ask but unlikely ?


Cheers again Mark.

Brilliant Mark

Right as the board stands it will work without manual switch I have to include I think approx 2 additional components change some code thats all nothing difficult at all

MYModule Structure works like this
12volt in permanent supply wired -> pin 13 easycan module
GROUND -> PIN9 Easycan module
Switch input Mymodule always powered enabled true
mymodule starts to moniter pin 12 looking for negative pulse ( You can remove relay we dont need this to convert to negative switching)

MYmod( ill use abreviation MM for mymodule )

Below 10kmh
MMRED Led state on MMrelays state off -> no 12 volts out to your sensors

Above 10kmh
MM Blue led on, MMred led off, MM Relay on -> 12 volts out to sensors

Ignition off MM disabled. All MMleds blue and red off MMrelay off -> No power to sensors

Agree Yes / No


Over to you let me know
Mark

Hi Mark,

Looks good, it may be my understanding of the below,

It think it should be this ????

Below 10kmh
MMRED Led state on MMrelays state off -> no 12 volts out to your sensors

*Below *10kmh
MM Blue led on, MMred led off, MM Relay on -> 12 volts out to sensors* (LED on ,in OEM parking sensor toggle switch ON) *

There is a small LED on the front of the parking sensor switch that should be on when you MMrelay has the Blue led on, this way I can tell if the feed is being passed through once the Pin 12 is live due to speed.

Also

*Above *10kmh
MM Blue led on, MMred led off, MM Relay on -> No 12 volts out to sensors due to speed (LED on, in OEM parking sensor toggle switch ON)

Does that makes sense ??

Thanks Mark

In answer to do I make the pcbs myself Yes I do all done by hand all drilled all assembled all tested all coded and designed and circuits myself All of what you see inclusive flowcharts wepages Every thing you see I do myself

I use a pcb design software package although I map the circuit out using mouse and physically making routes from components via track to various other components I dont use automation feature Its done by hand

The method i use to make pcbs is print design on press and peel iron on transfere then etch manually

Yes good got there in the end send me this last copy via email and can discuss whatever privately

Mark

Fantastic! I started with PCB123, then Eagle Cad and finally DipTrace. Sometimes I use the auto trace and sometimes I do it by hand, depending on which seems easier. But, even when I do use auto trace, I still wind up "correcting it" by hand ;)

But, I haven't been brave enough to try manufacturing my own PCBs. I'm trying out Seeed Studio's Fusion PCB service for prototypes -- you can get 10 two sided boards for around $1 to $2.5 per board for small boards 5cmx5cm to 10cmx10cm with full silkscreen and masking. It takes a while to get the board, though, but in most cases I can wait But, the slow speed is, apparently, atypical, and due to a production problem that they claim, with vigorous apologies, is under repair ;)

Then, for production runs, I've been using Advanced Circuits.

Hi Mark

Ive just been working on the swtich and probing the connections for continuity , but now very confused. originally I thought I had to find 5 wires, 2 for the LED , 2 for the switch and one untraced wire for the backlight.

But after tonight I now have 6 wires traced. I can only assume its a negative feed switch a bit like the Easy Canbus ?

what do you think ?

Thanks Mark