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What is the optimal condensation temperature for a CO furnace?

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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
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  • #61 11498193
    pyrzynap
    Level 2  
    pyrzynap wrote:
    Hello
    - average consumption of 8 m3 for the last 11 days,
    I have a house of 240 m2 - from 1980,

    It is to envy my colleague such a result.
    I have been testing my barely 162 meters for 11 days, I have reached 6.5 -7.5 meters a day at an inside temperature of 20 degrees Celsius.


    So what is the size and temperature night 19.5 day 20 to 21 evening consumption is ok - from October 25 from commissioning, which is really frost -2 and heat +12 total consumption until today 100 m3 - 12 days - average 8 , 3

    I plan the average consumption during the season of 6 months - up to 10 m3, maybe it will be possible to go lower then it would be great if the whole year was closed from 1200 m3 of hihi, but probably not possible times like this.
    It would be a perpetual motion machine, I guess.

    I am still thinking about changing the tank, currently 120 l - 13kW, to a heat pump - air, water, such as DHW so that maybe a little during the transition periods up to +10 C heat from the CH pump - I wonder if it would work - what do you think - someone has some experiences.


    My boiler ACV Prestige solo 32 MKIII - from 3.8 kW to 32 kW - modulation approx
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  • #62 11507353
    kabee84

    Level 24  
    Why do you need a heat pump? Electricity is expensive in Poland, calculate when or if you will ever pay for the purchase and installation of a pump for domestic hot water preparation ...
    If you did not have gas, another story ... The actual cost of heating hot water with gas in such a model family of four is about PLN 40 (the remaining costs are subscription and fixed transmission fee). About PLN 30 comes out at the heat pump. The annual savings should be even PLN 200 .... Calculate the rest yourself.
  • #63 11508313
    pyrzynap
    Level 2  
    kabee84 wrote:
    Why do you need a heat pump? Electricity is expensive in Poland, calculate when or if you will ever pay for the purchase and installation of a pump for domestic hot water preparation ...
    If you did not have gas, another story ... The actual cost of heating hot water with gas in such a model family of four is about PLN 40 (the remaining costs are subscription and fixed transmission fee). About PLN 30 comes out at the heat pump. The annual savings should be even PLN 200 .... Calculate the rest yourself.



    All in all, you are right, but in the transitional period I wanted to use the buffer from the pump to heat the water to CO, because from what I have now on the stove 35-38 outside 5C, it is enough comfort 20-21 C in the house.

    My main point is that now it has radiators and an underfloor heating on one power supply, there is a problem with the control, a separate pump on the floor heating, but the radiators have the main pump from the stove connected to the one from the floor heating - that's how the installer did it to me.

    See how it works out this winter, but my point is to make a buffer from the heat pump's tank - a hydraulic clutch and two separate circuits from this tank, and a gas and eco-pea coal furnace for the tank.

    What can you do for such a solution.

    Just for curiosity, I will say that now the pump is set to the first gear in the drink, the floor pump is set to the Alfa pump, 35-38C stove, in house 21 and the consumption is about 6-7 m3 for my 240 m2, what can you achieve a lower result? . what do you think.

    Maybe someone will tell you whether he tested such a system of radiators and floor heating or whether it is better to set a higher curve (higher supply temperature) or lower.
  • #64 11622224
    mcz79
    Level 12  
    Hello, I have been living since August 2012, in November, in the house of temperatuea downstairs, it is always over 9pm and upstairs we sleep there around 7pm and the upstairs bathroom is warm, a floor, a ladder and a heater. for November, I paid 152 m3. the stove is vitodens 200 all over the bottom flooring top 7 radiators. now, in December, frosts around -5 at night, my combustion jumped up because it burns around 8m3. I do not know how to set this stove exactly, I do not have a weather forecast. for now, I have set 39 degrees on the power supply. It seems to me that the combustion has jumped because the stove will turn on and then the post-logger downstairs will have time to cool down and when it turns on, it practically heats the floor again. Don't put it on the stove, for example, 35 degrees and let it go non-stop and set the temperature on the radiators on the thermostats on the top ?? and at the bottom, adjust the temperature on the mixing valve (three-way) ???
  • #65 11622525
    kabee84

    Level 24  
    If there was a weather report, and on the 3-way valve, an actuator and automation controlling the operation of the 3-way valve would not be a problem. The floor heating has a very high inertia and cannot be controlled well with an ordinary room thermostat.
    If you lower the temperature on the boiler to 35 degrees C, it may be too cold at the top. With the rest at the bottom, it is also unknown what it would be like. It cannot be done well manually.
    If the temperatures suit you and there is no problem that it is too warm downstairs and still too cold upstairs - then do not worry.
    If you want to lower the temperature at the bottom - turn the 3-way valve a little to lower the temperature to the floor heating. It may also slightly affect the more stable operation of the entire system, but when a greater frost comes, the fun will start all over again .....
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  • #66 11623182
    robin102
    Level 15  
    mcz79 wrote:
    Hello, I have been living since August 2012, in November, in the house of temperatuea downstairs, it is always over 9pm and upstairs we sleep there around 7pm and the upstairs bathroom is warm, a floor, a ladder and a heater. for November, I paid 152 m3. the furnace is vitodens 200

    What is your colleague's heated area and approximately cubature? In my case, in November, there were days with 6 m3, but when the temperature dropped to zero, it increased to 9. Now, with these frosts, the consumption has increased at 12-13 m3. The total area of the house is 162m2, and the heating area is only 132m2, and the cubic capacity is 680m2
    By the way, what temperatures do you keep in your garages, because I have 14 degrees Celsius, without the radiator turned on.
  • #67 11623285
    mcz79
    Level 12  
    I have 133 m2 + garage and the cubature is 465 m3
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  • #68 11623345
    piotr_boncza
    Level 29  
    kabee84 wrote:
    Why do you need a heat pump? . About PLN 30 comes out at the heat pump. The annual savings should be even PLN 200 .... Calculate the rest yourself.


    There is nothing to count here :D Most of these water heating pumps draw air from the room in which they are located. They take away the heat you already paid for with gas. They pay off when we have waste heat or we cool the pantry.
  • #69 11741058
    krzych388
    Level 2  
    Hello.
    This is my first heating season and so far I'm going on manual (no room or weather regulator). House 160 m2 - new and well insulated. Recent measurements show that I use approx. 6 m3 per day for central heating and domestic hot water (200l tank). Temp. which is set to 33-34 degrees, and the DHW temperature to 43 degrees. Is it worth using the stove without any regulators?
  • #70 11741656
    mcz79
    Level 12  
    What's your temperature inside, and how many floors do you have, how many radiators? In my opinion, the combustion is approx
  • #71 11743039
    krzych388
    Level 2  
    temperature inside approx. 19.5 degrees. On the ground floor, there is only floor heating in three loops, a total of approx. 16 m2, limited in the return by a thermostatic valve on the manifold (30 degrees setting). On the first floor there are 4 small radiators and two floor loops for a total of 13 m2 also limited to 30 degrees. In the bathroom, thermal comfort is ok.
  • #72 11755527
    kabee84

    Level 24  
    krzych388 wrote:
    Hello.
    This is my first heating season and so far I'm going on manual (no room or weather regulator). House 160 m2 - new and well insulated. Recent measurements show that I use approx. 6 m3 per day for central heating and domestic hot water (200l tank). Temp. which is set to 33-34 degrees, and the DHW temperature to 43 degrees. Is it worth using the stove without any regulators?

    1. The room regulator makes it possible to save heat energy when we are not at home or at times when a lower temperature is desired (night).
    2. Without weather automation, any major change in outside temperature must end with a visit to the boiler room to correct the water temperature in the central heating circuit. Recently, the temperature changed from -15 to +8 in 24 hours .... I bet at -15stC outside, the temperature of the heating medium in the central heating system of 34 degrees C is definitely too low to keep the temperature inside around 20 degrees C. the cauldron will condense beautifully again :-)
    3. The room-weather controller combines the advantages of weather automatics and a room regulator.

    Is it worth using a boiler without regulators - you have to answer this question yourself.
  • #73 11755783
    Brencik
    Level 26  
    A boiler without a regulator is like a car without a steering wheel. You can drive it, but turn it only by turning the wheels by hand.
  • #74 11757430
    Zbigniew Rusek
    Level 38  
    I am giving this link: http://ths.pl/product-pol-987-Gazowy-kociol-k...LANT-VC-ecoTec-plus-246-3-5-moc-26-kw-nr-kat- 0010002752-PRICE-FOR-EXPIRATION-STORAGE.html It shows that condensation also occurs at a heating medium temperature of 75 degrees (if the boiler efficiency is 107%, it means there is condensation, but at a lower temperature it is 109%). Meanwhile, the radiators are supplied with water at a temperature of 75 degrees in really large, 20-degree frosts (and 80 degrees is already the maximum), i.e. in 2-3 days at most during the entire heating season (if at all).
  • #75 11762869
    1pokemon
    Level 2  
    I am asking for help in setting up the ACV Prestige 24-32 Excellence MkII boiler. In September, the boiler was serviced (in my absence) by some mysterious service technician who probably had no idea about this boiler because he read my manual (in English) for over 2 hours and I have the impression that he changed everything for me. This season, I insulated the attic by adding another 15 cm of wool to the existing 10 cm and oversized the radiators. The house is old (10 cm insulated) and so is the installation, but I counted on a noticeable reduction in consumption. Meanwhile, the average gas consumption from October to December at practically positive temperatures was about 9 m3 / day. Yesterday, at a temperature of around -2, gas consumption was 14m3 (DHW off).
    Supply temperature 45 degrees, house area 170m2, room thermostat, no floor heating, no weather sensor.
    Flue gas analysis data:
    O2 - 4.2%
    CO2 - 9.4%
    Exc.air 1.22
    Gas temp. 67.1 C
    Temp. 16.9 C
    Efficiency 97.6%
    CO 21 ppm
    I was concerned about the service data that I can read from the user's position:
    4. -37 - Temp. outer T4 in ° C
    10. -37 - Supply water temperature
    second heating circuit in ° C
    I am asking for an answer what is wrong, because yesterday's wear knocked me out.
  • #76 11777168
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
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  • #77 11810365
    robin102
    Level 15  
    And after only 2 months of heating my home, I look like this that the most important thing is to split up my stove-gas boiler and figure out its optimal settings. Now, with frosts of minus 8-12 degrees, I use 12-14 meters of gas a day, which is not much, but I have dug out places for heat loss and will fix the topics in the spring. It is essential to keep the stove clean. My, for example, specifically oversized for my small house (162m, 680 cubature)), I set low supply temperatures, e.g. at the exit - barely 40-42 degrees (sometimes I only set 38 at the exit), then I have 37-38 degrees at the return. There is condensation, the water from the condensation tube goes specifically, the stove does not clock. He works practically all the time. It is enough to raise the output to, for example, 45 degrees and it starts working in cycles, which unfortunately increases gas consumption by 1 meter per day. Unfortunately, you need to make some notes to start with for various settings.
    At home, it maintains the temperature of at least 21 and 22 degrees. The fact is that when I have no weather, I fly to the furnace 3-4 times a day, changing the temperature at the outlet, because outside the temperature changes often.
    From Wednesday there will be frosts of minus 20 degrees or even 30 degrees, it will probably come down from 20 meters of gas a day :(
  • #78 11810973
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #79 11812510
    Brencik
    Level 26  
    Because thinking does not hurt, but only in advance. Nobody will ever think anything for you.
    And automation is there to set it up properly. And that's why 10 or 15 thousand are poured. to be able to set etc.
  • #80 11812913
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #81 11814708
    robin102
    Level 15  
    Mr. Colleague, after my experience with construction, i.e. building a house, I can say that there is no other industry in which such dilettantism prevails and no consequences for the so-called professionals as in construction. It just isn't. Everything is possible here, all miracles happen here. These people do not learn at all, they do not develop. outgrow their materials, ways of applying and using them. Fuchman arrives to spout the stairs. It's minus 3 degrees of temperature. on the bag with the masonry mass it is written not to use in the temperature below 5 degrees C and he get to mixing it. I ask if he read what is on the package, and he says that he has been doing it for 20 years and knows what he is doing. So I did goodbye to you.
    Same with the stove. he started the installer, he barely fired it, and he is already starting to regulate, I say ladies, let this boiler work for a few minutes, let something warm up, heat up, and he says that the next one has to go to do. Well, he came in two days to regulate the second time.
  • #82 11815546
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #83 11819749
    robin102
    Level 15  
    And I have eggs, Mr. Buddy, from the construction industry and so do not see them.
    I understand that I am a hobbyist in construction.
  • #84 19153149
    miro.t
    Level 11  
    Hello.
    I am the owner of the new Brotje WGB28i gas boiler.
    Boiler power is 3.7 - 29KW, installation on panel radiators (some are quite old). From what he observes, the newer ones probably have higher water flows, because they are hotter to a greater extent than the old ones.
    House from the beginning of the 80's with an area of about 200 m2, insulated a month ago.
    Salus is set to 23.6, only so that the boiler will work all the time and try to "catch up" with this temperature.
    The temperature in the house is about 22.5 - 23 degrees.

    I am testing various boiler settings and I wonder which option is more economical.
    If in the current weather, i.e. around 0st. C, I set the power supply to a temperature in the range of 42-45 degrees Celsius, then I have to raise the minimum pump speed to about 25-30%, because the older radiators heat poorly.
    In this case, the temperature difference between the supply and return is about 6-7 degrees Celsius.

    I can go lower with the pump speed, e.g. to 5-10%, but then I have to quite significantly increase the supply temperature to around 50-53 degrees. In this case, the difference between the supply and return is about 10-13 degrees.
    People write on the Internet that for the condensing boiler to work most effectively, the temperature difference between the supply and return must be at least 10-15 degrees.

    I don't know which option is more effective. I thought that since the boiler only needs to heat the water by 6 degrees, it uses less gas than if it had to heat the water by 15 degrees.

    It seems to me that the pump, working at 25-30% of its power, does not consume a lot of electricity drastically than at 5%.

    I am asking for advice.
    Thank you and best regards.
  • #85 19153180
    Wojewoda82
    Level 28  
    You are a little miner ...

    The difference between the settings will be minimal, you are fighting for maybe 1% of the cost. Choose the one that provides better thermal comfort. I would prefer a higher pump speed and all radiators from top to bottom almost as warm than the top of the radiator hot and the bottom cold. If the radiator is warm, the room heats up better and the temperature is more even.
  • #86 19153205
    miro.t
    Level 11  
    I approach it this way too.
    However, after the last invoice, I started reading and looking for answers as to whether my boiler settings were correct so that it would work optimally.
    The installer who installed the boiler has a different approach to the subject than this line of thinking. According to him, I have to set the temperature to 55st. and the pump at its lowest speed, making the bottom of the radiators practically cold and the top hot.
  • #87 19153315
    Wojewoda82
    Level 28  
    The influence of over 90% on the amount of m3 burned is the external temperature and thermal insulation of the building. When you had 45 degrees on the power supply, you wrote that the return was about 38 degrees. And how 50-53 is a return also around 40 degrees. I don't know the difference. Very good condensation return temperature for radiators, I am above 40 after a long boiler operation.

    For September, 12 m3, October 72 m3, for November 112 m3, for December 163 m3, I give the meter every month on the first day of the new month. As you can see it grows, January is slightly more than December but it depends on the weather.

    A year ago, respectively 20m3, 55m3, 120m3 and 153m3. In comparison, a year ago I burned less in October and December, but I burned more in November and September (the heating season started earlier). 359 m3 in the last 4 months of 2020 to 348 m3 in 2019. For me, this season is so far slightly cooler than last year.
  • #88 19153319
    BUCKS
    Level 39  
    miro.t wrote:
    According to him, I have to set the temperature to 55st. and the pump at its lowest speed, making the bottom of the radiators practically cold and the top hot.

    in principle, the return temperature is important for condensation.
    Analyze the efficiency of the boiler as specified by the manufacturers:
    eg Bosch 2200 has the following data:
    What is the optimal condensation temperature for a CO furnace?
    Taking into account the minimum power, the efficiency for 50/30 and 40/30 is the same and amounts to 108%. Only with 36/30 water we get 109.6%.
    Unfortunately, I do not know the efficiency chart, so it is difficult to estimate what the efficiency will be for e.g. 55/35 or 42/35.

    In terms of efficiency, 50/30 will be better than 55/35 but I do not know how many percent we gain.
    In terms of thermal comfort, it is better if the entire radiator should be as warm as possible, instead of top warm and cold bottom.
    Only to have fun, you would have to have valves from the so-called pre-regulation to adjust the flows through the radiators.
    If the older radiators heat less, they should be turned on more to compensate for the weaker pump efficiency.
    This requires a series of trials and tests and the regulatory possibilities already mentioned.

    Wojewoda82 wrote:
    The difference between the settings will be minimal, you are fighting for maybe 1% of the cost.

    It is difficult to estimate how much exactly, because it is not known what the current efficiency is.
    Assuming the maximum efficiency at the level of 108-109%, it is difficult to estimate the average efficiency in the entire heating season.
    Assuming an average efficiency of 104%, we lose 4-5%, but on the other hand, the boiler will not have a constant and, in addition, maximum efficiency, so it is a purely theoretical loss under ideal conditions.
    Let's assume that we lose 2%, and on an annual basis, miro.t pays PLN 3,000 for gas, i.e. 2% will give us PLN 60, so in my opinion the game is not worth the effort.
    But if its annual consumption is on the verge of belonging to the W-3 or W-2 tariff, i.e. 1200 m3 per year, this changes the form of things. Although 2% gives a difference of only 24 m3, for me the difference between the W-2 and W-3 tariffs means subscription fees higher by about PLN 300, which is a better incentive to optimize costs.
  • #89 19153422
    miro.t
    Level 11  
    Thanks for the answers.
    Before I asked the question, I was reading it, and reading it became more and more stupid :)
    Maybe I will give a specific account for the last FV for the period 10.10 - 17.12 I used 10675kWh.
    I can not determine whether my building + stove is normal wear and tear, or whether you need to look for savings.
  • #90 19153455
    Wojewoda82
    Level 28  
    You burned about 950 m3 in just over 2 months, not even in winter ?! How much do you heat? 300-400m2? Before, what did you sunbathe? Coal? From 5-6 tons per year?

    Quite a lot and this is not due to the temperature settings on the boiler, but only:
    a) the needs of the building and its surface (poor or no insulation on the walls or attic)
    b) incorrect setting of the mixture in the boiler

    Possibly it's a new building, the first heating season, and you heat up the walls and dry them. Then the consumption is actually excessive.
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Topic summary

The discussion revolves around the optimal condensation temperature for a condensing boiler, specifically focusing on the return temperature necessary for effective condensation. Participants agree that the return temperature should ideally be below 57°C to facilitate condensation, with some suggesting that lower temperatures enhance efficiency. The optimal flow and return temperatures discussed range from 40-55°C for various heating systems, including those with underfloor heating and radiators. The importance of proper radiator sizing and system configuration is emphasized to achieve efficient operation and minimize energy consumption. Users share their experiences with different boiler models and settings, highlighting the need for adjustments based on external temperatures and building insulation.
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