Potential Dangers of Forging New Installation Channels in Large-Panel Blocks

kondensator wrote:

I can only regret it, many issues and topics are connected (sometimes also by the writer) and there is no monopoly of one forum.

Sorry, I don't have time to follow other forums and look for what you wrote somewhere on them.
You gave your answer on the electrode, not on the SEP forum. There you can write whatever you want and nothing to do with it.

kondensator wrote:

Thank you, my colleague, for a very useful link https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic1761772.html
I will try not to forget to add "IMHO", there is a chance that it will increase the readability of the posts. I do not want to argue, but I HAVE NOT WRITTEN anything like "standard / journal of laws / regulation X states that Y wires should be used", so far it was just a text like "you must use a hammer to drive nails" or "older people should give way to seats" - a quotation from the principles of good practice or culture, so far there is probably no directive or standard yet (*) Regards, my colleague, we must all be patient (IMHO)

And for me, your opinion sounds like a requirement to use 5x1.5mm? cables in lighting circuits.

The link to this quote that I have posted is only intended to give you an idea of what the words mean, and how they can be perceived in technical language.

kondensator wrote:

(*) as for Polish Standards - in the issue 01-2013 of the monthly "Inżynier Budownictwa", there is a long text "Voluntary or obligatory use of PN - a two-voice in the case" - and this problem cannot be solved for many years, just like the problem of buying bottles. ..
http://www.piib.org.pl/index.php/iniynier-budownictwa-topmenu-91
http://www.piib.org.pl/pliki/ib/ib_01_13.pdf

I did not refer to any standards or regulations.

kondensator wrote:

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And to all those who wish to forge / cut grooves (grooves) in ceilings and load-bearing walls, I suggest first to imagine a model of a house made of glass plates, of course loaded inside. It can also be a glass bookcase, with a new, very expensive, huge TV set, souvenir crystal vases for the mother-in-law, etc. "treasures". Now we give the child a cheap glass stylus with a quasi-diamond and a strip / ruler, and we say that he can draw long lines on these glass panes with the above-mentioned tool ... Glass is much thicker than the depth of scratches that a child can make with a stylus, and additionally glass is even a bit springy (reinforced concrete too) ... Are you willing? In this example with the model you can lose somea sum of money, in fact (construction) much more along with someone else's health and life. I hope such an example (IMHO) will be enough.

You don't have to imagine, just google Glass houses .
Nobody persuades anyone to make furrows as it flies in the ceiling and load-bearing slabs. In a big CD, installations are made in the same way as they did 40 years ago. But not only. Just think so as not to infringe.
Well, but if someone is very stubborn (by doing an extra job), it is their business and risk.
It is also not true that such renovations are left to themselves. Each renovation must be reported. There are such cooperatives that they send in commissions to monitor the work. The owner gets guidelines for the contractor. That's what I had recently.

andrefff wrote:

I have an overwhelming impression that the author of the topic has a new installation located in the channels, and now he is looking for support for his pseudo-scientific theses.

I do not have the entire installation laid in the trays because the nearly 40-year-old aluminum cast in concrete for me and my neighbors still fulfills its function, the trays are only placed where a new lighting point, contact, internet was needed. If necessary, of course, I will arrange the entire installation using channels.
Relevant the above-mentioned pseudo-scientific theses. Even the designer or people supervising the construction do not fully know how the construction will behave, you know life itself, an example; Many years ago I was working on the construction of a medium-sized bridge (do not ask where). Specifically, when carrying out the reinforcements, one supervisor directly responsible for the construction drew my attention. Well, the main reinforcement bars (vertical) were delivered to the base, about 60 mm, which were too short, then nothing can always be welded, another thing that drew my attention to the embarrassment and concern of this person for the main bars to be properly welded together, he wanted to overlap, of course (no I have seen such an acquisition before amongst supervisors). I was wondering what was going on, I welded most of the bars because I was the only one who had welding qualifications on the basis, the rest was welded spontaneously (someone just said that he can also weld) because time is running.
Welded and hot bent bars and other details were delivered to the assembly, I did not work on concreting this bridge, but you know how it is on the construction site, boys want to drink and Polish steel mills are waiting for steel. More details and other circumstances are not given above the fact that the person supervising the construction did not show up at work at first and then quit.
I don't know if he felt too much into the role, or if he was so sensitive, as long as you can sense something from his appearance and conversation. Anyway, it intrigued me so much that I decided to see the bridge to which I was making reinforcements, there were no cracks on the bridge, etc. Perhaps even its strength is better than many new bridges, I am not a supporter of blind belief in what is theoretically calculated because practice will never reach the theoretical ideal, but the commonly used statement "what is to hang will not drown" (as long as it does not fall on someone's head) is applied anyway.
So when something is standing, it may not be worth changing the facts and blindly believing that it will succeed.

A builder's opinion would be handy. But when I know life, no one will sign it anyway.

However, every building, including the Polish Army, was designed with reserve. Often, skyscrapers and 3-4-story buildings were assembled from exactly the same panels. Anyway, the same tiles are in the ground floor and on the top floor. No one was concerned with the economics, but it is easy to see the differences in their burdens.

I myself, in order not to hinder myself in the walls, usually only make vertical furrows (with shields, not a hammer). Sometimes the very deposition of cans is a nightmare when you hit the 12 'reinforcement. I usually suggest laying cables in the floor (usually they have to be replaced anyway). The only thing left is to play with the ceiling, where there is usually a small furrow, and the rest is done by the plaster.
Of course, you add twice as much cable ...
Something for something.

Anyway, the SM themselves peck at something, they burrow the walls as they feel comfortable. Without supervision.

Lewer wrote:

many years ago I worked on the construction of a medium-sized bridge (don't ask where)

Be a colleague and say ...

zbich70 wrote:

Lewer wrote:

many years ago I worked on the construction of a medium-sized bridge (don't ask where)

Be a colleague and say ...

The fact that I would give the location of this bridge would be useless, because what? I have to state on the forum with full data that you get steel reinforcements from the construction, that the people in managerial positions responsible for this construction are ignoramuses and ordinary bastards and only money is important to them and, if necessary, the ability to blame the blame on some scapegoat. a commission and would prove that for every 100 tons of reinforcement that, according to the project, was supposed to be poured into concrete, there is only 80 tons? I doubt that in Poland there are bigger scandals for which no one is involved, and such building of bridges, etc., are frequent cases in Poland. Only in the event of a construction disaster, a commission is formed and in the end it is not possible to determine the culprits.
Of course, I was working on the construction of this bridge at a time when capitalism had already made its way to Poland, and contrary to the popular opinion in the times of communism, if only for this reason, they could better build that the penal code was more inevitable, today it is a matter of well-paid lawyers.
Following the example of my work, I can say that the main reinforcement of bridges can be welded by people without qualifications who do not know that you need to reflect the trail when the next layer of weld is placed (this person welded on the manager's command). Another example, I received a drawing according to which I was to bend the main steel bars with a diameter of 60 mm, this drawing was marked with a sufficiently large internal arc so that during hot bending with a torch no narrowing of the material was created or the rod on the external arc would not break. with distances, according to which, together with the assistant, I bent the main reinforcements. To my surprise, after they arrived at the assembly site, the manager came to me with regret that this arch is not needed because of the previously poured reinforced concrete element, of course I replied that I received such a drawing and, most importantly, it is impossible to bend the rod with a diameter of 60 mm correctly with no a stress-relieving arc. Then there was the dissatisfaction of people forging concrete for arches in the main reinforcing bars, and it did not help to explain that the arches are in accordance with the drawing because the answer was that before that there was a welder who bent these bars without any arc and there was less work.
It can be quoted boringly, the fact is that many buildings in Poland are bungling (especially those from public procurement), the newly wealthy owners of construction companies and other companies cheat on their execution, who will check them, or assemble what, according to the official project, for which they get money or do according to your 'tuned' lean design. Everything will be poured over with concrete, covered with earth and no one will find out what's inside there. These are wholesalers with large-scale turnover, there are also retailers in every well-coordinated team of builders, there is a possibility of taking out / transporting steel raw materials, these are not the same amounts as in the case of wholesalers (interference in the project, change of concrete class) but always something. And if a person responsible for the structure feels too thin in his ears and is afraid of being framed, he simply slows down.
This is whyOnly people who do not know how to build can be bold in their opinions, because there are situations where it is not worth drawing heavy artillery and not violating something that is already standing.

And what about the drilling (with impact) in the "big plate" of the 10mm hole for expansion bolts? Can you or not?

After the 1st, you reheat the cutlet ...
After 2. How much do you want to drill that until you had to ask? 100? 1000?

serwisor wrote:

How much do you want to drill until you had to ask? 100? 1000?

Since there are such risks associated with it, I preferred to ask.

You still haven't answered the question how many holes do you want to drill ...

In total, in one room out of 30 would accumulate ...