How do I avoid unnecessarily switching on the gutter heaters at +2-3°C without snow?

Welcome to the Honourable Group

I would like to ask if you have any experience of implementing a gutter heating system to melt the snow and, in the form of water, discharge it into the rainwater system. What is the problem?

1. It is snowing at a temperature of e.g. + 2-3 degrees and it is snowing. The thermostat switches on the heaters and the snow melts and as water flows down the gutter into the rainwater drainage system. What can I do to protect myself when the temperature is + 2-3 degrees, but there is no snow, so that the heaters do not switch on?

It is difficult to build a system that detects falling snow. You are always left with manual on/off.

Humidity sensor? Precipitation sensor? A water sensor?
You could even tinker with some sort of reflective sensor.

What is the increase in humidity with snowfall if the temp is at 2-3 degrees ? A water sensor if the idea is to be used in winter and water is everywhere ?
But some kind of precipitation sensor is something ;]

This is melting snow or snow and rain. When it falls on the sensor it will quickly turn into water.
Water and snow are not always everywhere in winter - don't overdo it!

There are ready-made controllers based on humidity sensors but if you can afford manual control this is the most economical solution. It's not the cost of the controller but the cost of the energy used to heat the roof. Proportionally, this is a bigger difference than the difference between fuel consumption and with a manual and automatic transmission in a car.

actin wrote:

It is difficult to build a system that detects falling snow.

It is not so difficult to detect falling snow, it is more difficult to control the state of snow and ice on the semi-slopes and downpipes and only such control would ensure economic energy management.

If it snows at e.g. + 2-3 degrees and there is a lot of snow and then the temperature drops from e.g. - 5-6 degrees, the heater switched on by the thermostat will melt the snow and it will flow as water into the rainwater. But since the snow is no longer in the gutter because it has melted, the thermostat still heats the gutter. How to make that after the snow has melted the heater does not heat the empty gutter THERE IS A PROBLEM

See here: https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic2194942.html#10418091
and here:
http://www.elektro-bud.com.pl/oferta/thermoval-systemy-przeciwoblodzeniowe/c:o/id:41 after opening click: THERMOVAL - Anti-icing systems

marekp59 wrote:

THERE IS THE PROBLEM

The problem is in the price of the energy used to melt the snow, technical solutions exist, I have given them above.

It seems to me that making decisions based on temperature and humidity is a mistake.
It would make sense to place sensors to check the patency of the pipes...e.g. ultrasonic. In any other case we will repeatedly heat the pipe unnecessarily.
In my opinion, THE PROBLEM IS DARK AND UNTRIVIAL.
Energy consumption is a constraint but not a solution. You cannot say that it is not worthwhile as long as the system does not work properly Making such an ultrasonic sensor is even for a hobbyist a few tens of zlotys.... not counting here the working time and the frazzled nerves because of the constant question : "why does it not work"

How about an optical sensor using the phenomenon of the beam reflecting off the snow?

Wondering why such an arrangement is needed, I came to the conclusion that the problem is a clogged pipe and I will put it that way for now. Then, for example, you could put a piezo speaker on top of the pipe and a microphone on the bottom. A full pipe will conduct sound differently, so you could be tempted to analyse the received signal and decide whether to heat or not. The advantage of this solution is that both the speaker and the microphone can be applied to the outside surface of the tube and will then not be in contact with the environment....ale a little testing is needed for this
I think I'll hook up an arduino this winter and look at how to automate this because it certainly can be done. I've never heated the gutters and I'll admit they can be annoying when they're clogged......I guess it's time to get on with it

All in all, the sensible solution is the optical route, it requires the least effort.... But it does block the diameter of the channel (assuming you're not looking for reflection, but rather clearance). An ordinary torch bulb doesn't take much, and overall is almost immune to moisture. Apart from the fact that you can use LEDs, there are also laser pointers - these are probably a bad solution (because itak probably the beam will hit the clearance )

Sound methods have their disadvantages, the sounds would have to propagate without reverberation, which is unlikely to be easy in a tube, which is a tube. Once the sound is transmitted, in my opinion, the structure will resonate for a long time.... Besides, dissolving water drips, so it generates some sound. So you would need a filter with a specific pass band....

If the pipes are metal, and the author likes to make things difficult, one might be tempted to treat the gutter as a circular waveguide and measure the wave propagation properties of such a gutter
This was, of course, a joke.

i would turn the thing on ... digital filters (software) would be fastened and I would experimentally choose when to turn it on and when not to turn it on.... then I would add a knob (i.e. a button) for additional manual switching and that would be it

or maybe a classic original heating cable
and a factory-fitted thermostat
let's not get crazy, the heating cable does not consume god knows what power
simple, effective and indestructible

opto17 wrote:

let's not get crazy the heating cable doesn't draw god knows what kind of power

It does not consume any power because you consume energy not power. But when it is a long winter and there is frequent snowfall it can draw a healthy amount.
In my case, about 300 kWh in the 2011/2012 season (the beginning of winter as it is now without snowfall) and almost seven times more 2090 kWh in 2012/2013.when the first snowfall already occurred at the end of October.

If you have, for example, 80m of heating cable (for 40m of gutters and pipes), its power is 1600W !!!
So each hour of operation is 0.5 to 0.8 PLN depending on the tariff.
If the gutter heating works only on the basis of temperature measurement then one month with sub-zero temperatures will cost you up to £580. A moisture sensor in the gutter if it is to work automatically and economically is essential. Here an example of a gutter heating installation and a few words about automation:
Gutter heating video

hcz

This topic is probably known in the weather stations. Perhaps you can talk to them. I know that it used to be possible to call such a station in Wrocław. The other thing is that the world has changed and now you don't even know what your neighbour's name is, because they're not allowed to post lists of inhabitants. You don't know whether they won't be afraid to talk about the strategic sensors used to measure snowfall

Procent1968 wrote:

This topic is probably known in the weather stations.

Not only that, links have been provided in this topic.

Add an infrared barrier to the thermostat. When the snow covers the barrier and the thermostat meets the low temperature condition - the pseudo-automatic will switch on your roof heating, gutter heating or whatever you want.

Hi. Another idea that comes to my mind is to weigh a gutter with snow, e.g. a scales system would cause overbalancing at a certain weight, a heater would melt it and relieve the load. Automation is probably easy to devise here. Of course, it would be about some standard section of the gutter (e.g. 50 cm). Another way would be to test the flow of meltwater at a specific point in the run-off (if possible, of course). I admit that I have no experience in de-icing gutters.

What about running a laser/infrared beam in parallel (along its length) on a horizontal section of guttering?
Beam interrupted and temperature about 0 degrees then you have to heat.
Beam interrupted and it's warmer - sets off an alarm as a sign that rubbish has accumulated in the gutter and it's also unobstructed. Such a 2-in-1 ;D

The question is why was an anti-icing system installed?
If it's for the sake of a faux pas, because "the neighbour doesn't have one and I do", then the price of electricity is indeed an issue. However, there are usually three main reasons: the freezing of the drain pipe and/or the danger of falling icicles to passers-by.The third is the destruction of the façade with streaking. While the last two have to do with melting snow/ice, the first has to do with frost. All three cannot be ruled out at the same time-i.e. on the same building-but quite often the first will be a problem on the north side of the building and the second and third on the south side. In the case of frost, heating is required at low temperatures and after precipitation. In the second and third cases, after precipitation but after the temperature rises above zero during the day. It is also necessary to note that heating the gutter after it has actually iced up can have a low ice removal effect and only improve the trickling of slightly heated water down the drain pipe to a certain extent. According to the principle that prevention is better than cure, it may be better to give up on so-called energy savings and not risk the expense of subsequent compensation for falling icicles or the expense of a new gutter, façade or chasing off the drainpipe at
-25 degrees of frost. Perhaps a bit much...

I know of more pleasant and incisive bytes than the anti-icing system
We were forced into the system by grey reality. In our case, not only the expense of a new gutter but the unsealing of the so-called "parapet" on the north side and the flooding of flats even on several floors depending on the degree of unsealing. Record-breaking (a few years ago) water went down the wall through 3 floors, 1 floor was the norm every three to four years.
As a curiosity - on the south side, despite gigantic icicles (heating only on the north side), a roof leak occurs once in 15-20 years.
I gave the energy consumption in post 15

So you can see for yourself that the system is needed. However, it is possible that the one you have installed does not fully perform its function on top of wasting energy. The company from the link provided by kol sq2hcz is not a reliable one either. I suggest you ask for a consultation with a local representative of well-known companies, e.g. DEVI, RAYCHEM, LUXBUD, etc. as this guarantees a sensible approach to the subject. It's a shame to get wrapped up in apparent savings and then spend money on electricity bills, roof, guttering etc.

artur s wrote:

It is possible, however, that the one fitted to you is not fully performing its function on top of wasting energy.

From what do you deduce that, since you yourself write:

artur s wrote:

In accordance with the principle that prevention is better than cure, maybe it is time to give up on the so-called energy saving

or fish or pork or if you prefer "cry and pay"
We will see how this season turns out, so far 1 kWh has not been used.

Apparently I misunderstood the problems present in your building. Having read the thread you have attached n.e.g. the system you have installed and the adjustment of the settings, I can see that it is more reasonably set up. It is also apparent that you have not left it alone so it is not just screwing up your bills. Ground systems sometimes use two or even four humidity sensors working in a "cold-warm" system so as not to react unnecessarily to non-snow related humidity. This is certainly more expensive to buy, but saves money during operation. However, you certainly need to be mindful of the primary purpose the system has. Do you have heating in the gutters on each side of the building? And does it have a common control? Perhaps by breaking down the system into several sub-systems, it would be possible to reduce costs without altering efficiency

Heating only the north side, we had planned, after checking the effectiveness of the heating on this side, to put on the south side as well but the 'hose in the pocket of some community members' and the fact that the south side is not critical, delay the investment. Maybe we will put it on in two-three years after the roof has been renovated. We renovated the north side before putting the heating on - removal of old layers of roofing felt, new roofing, new flashing.
When heating the south side, we envisage manual control, because there it is enough to heat for a few days a season.

Are you able to confirm that you have installed cables with a unit power of 30W/mb? According to the instructions about 30W/mb of standard guttering, not cable (200-300W/m²) . However, in a normal gutter at least two strands of cable.In downpipes up to 30W/mb but not one, but two cables (e.g. back and forth). There are several reasons for this, and about this at another time.