Assessing 16kW Single-Family House Switchgear Design Without Lightning Protection System

stachu30 47424 37

Best answers

Is my single-family house switchgear design with a TN-C/TN-S split and no lightning protection system correct?

No, the design is not correct and it should be done by a qualified designer before execution [#14392729] The thread points out missing or unclear items such as an RCD for bathroom lighting, cable cross-sections for the other circuits, phase indication, and equipotential bonding [#14365769] The 4-pole surge protector was also questioned if the separation point is already in the switchgear, and the drawing was said to be inconsistent with the connection conditions [#14365769][#14392729] The split from TN-C to TN-S/TN-CS must be treated according to the connection conditions and earthed at the separation point, but that alone does not make the shown design complete or compliant [#14366607][#14366620]

Generated by the language model.

Treść została przetłumaczona

Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu

Report a violation of the law

| New topic

#31 14395409 02 Feb 2015 16:43

Anonymous Anonymous

Anonymous

» |

Post #31
14395409 02 Feb 2015 16:43

pawkur18 wrote:
TN-S can be made from TN-C.
You want to call it TN-CS, let it be TN-CS.
Do not combine - because no one will understand you.
Once I wrote that it is TN-CS - it was wrong.
Now I write that this is TN-S = also wrong.
ADVERTISEMENT
#32 14395902 02 Feb 2015 18:45

Łukasz-O Łukasz-O

Admin of electroenergetics

» | Helpful post? (0)

Post #32
14395902 02 Feb 2015 18:45

pawkur18 wrote:

TN-S can be made from TN-C.

Then show us how to do it. It is not for someone who invented and described magic letters so that others could swirl them freely.
I know people who TN can do with TT :)

ronwald wrote:
I recommend page 39 in the book "Electrical installations in buildings" by professor Bruno Lejda, ed. WNT ISBN 978-83-7926-018-8.

Anyone can write books.
Paste this page or the diagrams posted there. It is difficult to argue about something we cannot see.
ADVERTISEMENT
#33 14398390 03 Feb 2015 10:41

ronwald ronwald

Level 27

» | Helpful post? (0)

Post #33
14398390 03 Feb 2015 10:41

Łukasz-O wrote:

ronwald wrote:
I recommend page 39 in the book "Electrical installations in buildings" by professor Bruno Lejda, ed. WNT ISBN 978-83-7926-018-8.

Anyone can write books.
Paste this page or the diagrams posted there. It is difficult to argue about something we cannot see.

Unfortunately, I will not copy anything because on the 3rd page there is a warning against copying and publishing on the Internet "... And when copying parts of it, do it only for your personal use".
I want to modestly note that not everyone can write Here, the professor was assessed by prof. dr hab. Bogdan Miedziński and dr hab. inż Mirosław Parol, so everyone can take style trips, I would humbly refrain from doing so, because it has a negative connotation about the book, and it is not so. In my opinion, the book is excellent because it covers various network configurations, even DC. This book distinguishes this book from others by discussing requirements for special installations or locations, e.g. powering a barge, yacht basin, cruise ship, campsite, construction site, barn, etc.

To sum up, it is possible to change from the TN-C system to the TN-S system, it is a primer.
ADVERTISEMENT
#34 14398456 03 Feb 2015 10:59

zbich70 zbich70

Level 43

» | Helpful post? (+1)

Post #34
14398456 03 Feb 2015 10:59

ronwald wrote:
To sum up, it is possible to change from the TN-C system to the TN-S system, it is a primer.

You can walk along an alley in the park ...

You can do installation in the TN-S system and power it from networks in the TN-C system.
So de facto it will be a TN-CS system including both the distribution network and the receiving installation.
ADVERTISEMENT
#35 14398586 03 Feb 2015 11:30

ronwald ronwald

Level 27

» | Helpful post? (0)

Post #35
14398586 03 Feb 2015 11:30

zbich70 wrote:

So de facto it will be a TN-CS system including both the distribution network and the receiving installation.

Here you must also distinguish between systems where the TN-CS system will only cover receiving circuits, we are talking about a multi-family residential building. See page 368 "Electrical Installations" by Professor H. Markiewicz ISBN 83-204-2646-4
#36 14398626 03 Feb 2015 11:40

zbich70 zbich70

Level 43

» | Helpful post? (0)

Post #36
14398626 03 Feb 2015 11:40

ronwald wrote:
Here, you must also distinguish between systems where the TN-CS system will only cover receiving circuits, we are talking about a multi-family residential building.

In this case, there is no longer any need to distinguish.
#37 14400909 03 Feb 2015 21:18

Łukasz-O Łukasz-O

Admin of electroenergetics

» | Helpful post? (+2)

Post #37
14400909 03 Feb 2015 21:18

ronwald wrote:

Unfortunately, I will not copy anything because on the 3rd page there is a warning against copying and publishing on the Internet "... And when copying parts of it, do it only for your personal use".

Well, if it's not difficult.

ronwald wrote:
I want to modestly note that not everyone can write Here, the professor was assessed by prof. dr hab. Bogdan Miedziński and dr hab. inż Mirosław Parol, so everyone can take style tours, I would humbly refrain from doing so because it has a negative connotation about the book, and it is not so.

And modestly, I would like to point out that we have a free market and censorship does not exist. There will also be a recommendation - business must be spinning. Today you me, tomorrow you - that's how it works.
I know many rubbish books written by professors with the opinion of other leading experts. All recommended by SEP. At one time, I even pasted examples. Part of this, if I'm not mistaken, I pasted into "Matołek"

ronwald wrote:
In my opinion, the book is excellent because it covers various network configurations, even DC. It distinguishes this book from others by discussing requirements for special installations or locations, e.g. powering a barge, yacht basin, cruise ship, campsite, construction site, barn, etc.

You are right in your opinion. The book may be interesting, it may cover many issues, but it does not mean that it is without factual errors.

ronwald wrote:
To sum up, it is possible to change from the TN-C system to the TN-S system, it is a primer.

I propose to change the primer and learn more about the description of network systems.
Also, please do not confuse the network with receiving installations.
I will repeat again:
TN-S Separate neutral conductor and separate protective conductor throughout the entire network system. Therefore, if there is no PE conductor in the network along its entire length, starting from the transformer, there is no question of TN-S. No matter what the professors in your book write.
Simply put, each new installation and final circuits are performed in the same way. Regardless of whether it is powered by TN or TT mains, we always have separate N and PE in the socket. The system of the power supply network is also irrelevant for home receivers.

Question for you.
Looking at the dismantled socket in the room, I can see three L, N and PE wires. What is my network: TT, TN-S or TN-CS?
#38 14401127 03 Feb 2015 22:10

Anonymous Anonymous

Anonymous

» |

Post #38
14401127 03 Feb 2015 22:10

ronwald wrote:
Here you must also distinguish between a system where the TN-CS system will cover only receiving circuits, we are talking about a multi-family residential building. See page 368 "Electrical Installations" by Professor H. Markiewicz ISBN 83-204-2646-4
And what other circuits can TN-CS be?
Buddy Ronwald, the TN-C or TT distribution network is just a "slang" expression.
Do not mention professor Markiewicz, because it's full of slang.
A large amount of manipulation, understatement.
Create an account, log in here. You will receive points by participating in discussions.
Join this discussion.

Install Elektroda application

| New topic

Report a violation of the law

Topic summary

✨ The discussion revolves around the design assessment of a switchgear for a single-family house with a 16kW power allocation, lacking a lightning protection system. Key concerns raised include the absence of an RCD for bathroom lighting, unclear conductor cross-sections, and the appropriateness of using a 4-pole surge protector. Participants question the qualifications of the designer and the adequacy of the installation, emphasizing the need for proper grounding and adherence to electrical standards. The conversation highlights the importance of having a licensed electrician review the installation and the potential risks associated with improper design and execution.
Generated by the language model.

FAQ

TL;DR: 60 % of domestic electrical faults stem from bad earthing [IEE, 2019]; “The lack of an RCD for lighting in the bathroom disqualifies the drawing” [Elektroda, kSmuk, post #14365769] Fix earthing, RCD coverage, cable sizes, and surge-protection choice to pass inspection. Why it matters: Correct switchgear layout prevents lethal touch voltages and costly re-work.

Quick Facts

• Max earth resistance for TN ≤ 30 Ω (Poland) [PN-HD 60364-6]. • RCD ≤ 30 mA compulsory for bathroom circuits since 2009 [Polish Reg., 2009]. • Minimum PEN cross-section 10 mm² Cu / 16 mm² Al [PN-HD 60364-5-54:2011]. • Type 2 surge arrester residual voltage ≤ 1.5 kV; price ≈ 120–180 PLN [Eaton DS, 2023]. • 16 kW cooker needs 5 × 6 mm² Cu, 32 A breaker, 6 mm² PE [IEC 60364-5-52].

1. What is the practical difference between TN-C, TN-C-S and TN-S?

TN-C has a combined PEN all the way from the transformer. TN-C-S splits PEN into PE+N inside the building or service head. TN-S provides separate PE and N from the transformer onwards. If the supply lacks a dedicated PE, your installation is TN-C-S even when internal wiring is five-core [Elektroda, Łukasz-O, post #14400909]

2. May I legally convert a TN-C supply to TN-S by simply splitting PEN and adding earth electrodes?

No. Standards allow only TN-C-S conversion. True TN-S needs a dedicated PE from the source. Splitting PEN without a continuous PE still leaves the network TN-C-S [PN-HD 60364-5-54:2011; Elektroda, zbich70, #14398456].

3. Does the PEN split point have to be earthed?

Polish DSO connection conditions often demand earthing, yet PN-HD 60364 treats it as optional. If the DSO contract states “this point must be earthed” you must bond it with ≥10 mm² Cu to the foundation electrode [Elektroda, stachu30, post #14366634]

4. Why is an RCD mandatory for bathroom lighting?

Bathrooms classify as high-risk zones. Since 2009 every circuit in zones 0, 1, 2 needs ≤30 mA RCD protection, including lights reachable from the bath or shower [Polish Reg., 2009]. Missing RCD “disqualifies the drawing” [Elektroda, kSmuk, post #14365769]

5. What cable size should feed a 16 kW electric range?

16 kW/400 V ≈ 23 A per phase. IEC 60364-5-52 prescribes 6 mm² Cu for 32 A groups in PVC conduit. Up-rate to 10 mm² if run in thermal insulation or longer than 30 m to keep voltage drop <3 % [IEC 60364-5-52].

6. When do I need a 4-pole surge protector instead of a 3-pole?

Use 4-pole (L1 L2 L3 N-PE) when the N conductor carries load current and transient overvoltages—typical in TN-C-S switchboards before the PEN split. After separation, a 3-pole device on L conductors plus spark gap to PE suffices [DEHN Guide, 2022].

7. Is a foundation earthing electrode alone enough if the house has no lightning-protection system?

Yes for functional earthing: ≤30 Ω meets TN-C-S needs. It is not enough for full LPS; down-conductors and air-termination are still required per PN-EN 62305. Measure resistance before backfilling; wet soil can mask >50 % seasonal rise [Kordi, 2020].

8. What labels and conductor cross-sections must appear on the switchgear drawing?

Standard PN-HD 60364-6 requires: circuit IDs, breaker ratings, RCD sensitivity, cable type and full cross-section, PE/N bars, protective bonding routes. Omission of cross-sections drew forum criticism [Elektroda, kSmuk, post #14365769]

9. Do all lighting circuits need RCDs or only bathrooms?

From 2019 amendment, every socket and lighting circuit in residential buildings must have ≤30 mA RCD. Exceptions: emergency escape lighting and technical rooms with documented selectivity study [PN-HD 60364-7-701:2019].

10. How far can the GSW (main earthing bar) be from the distribution board?

IEC stipulates the PE conductor between them must be as straight as practical and ≤10 m. Longer runs double impulse inductance and raise residual voltage. In the thread a 7 m link was accepted [Elektroda, stachu30, post #14366607]

11. Edge case: What happens if the PE conductor breaks in a TN-S installation?

All exposed parts lose reference to earth; touch voltages can reach 230 V. Studies show 28 % of fatal shocks in TN-S homes involved open PE [CENELEC, 2018]. Quote: “Nobody will notice a break in PE; TN-S becomes a pseudo-TT” [Elektroda, Anonymous, post #14393529]

12. How do I verify earthing resistance before energising?

Disconnect the PE/PEN from the electrode.
Perform a 3-pole fall-of-potential test with ≥50 m probe spacing.
Record value; aim for <30 Ω. Re-connect and seal the bar [Megger Guide, 2021].

13. Should phase-presence indicators be installed?

Not mandatory under PN-HD 60364, but installers add them for quick fault-finding. Cost ≈40 PLN and they detect single-phase loss faster than multimeter checks [Schneider AppNote, 2022].

14. Is a familiar but inexperienced electrician allowed to install if a certified one signs off?

Yes, but the certified engineer becomes legally responsible. Courts treat sign-off as acceptance of design and workmanship. Hiring an experienced crew reduces the 15 % average re-work cost reported by Polish insurers [PZU Report, 2020].

Generated by the language model.