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ESP8266 - - what Ethernet equivalent does it have without wifi?

abyss 4326 13
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  • #1 15349341
    abyss
    Level 14  
    I want to get started with simple sensors, I found a project I was interested in based on a chip I liked - a programmable ESP8266 but I need an analogous cheap chip that supports transmission via an Ethernet port (and preferably a built-in RJ45 socket) rather than wifi. I've tried looking, but either old age and lack of skill is coming out, or it's just a surfeit of results related to things that 'mask' the result and I can't see it.
    What chip should I be looking for?
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    #3 15350422
    ostrytomasz
    Level 24  
    Nothing competing directly in my opinion - higher prices, less capability, worse support, often all at once, but a few suggestions:
    1. linux board or converted router
    2. module with ENC28J60 (~$10) + mini module with ARM (~$3.50) - I haven't tried it
    3. iSA network card (I would point to RTL8019, but it seems that some 3com chip is also popular) - for the price of scrap + microcontroller; at http://www.ulrichradig.de/ under AVR/WebServer (alte Version), it worked for me for a year on a prototype board: http://tomeko.net/mikroserwer.php
    4. PIC18F67J60 ($4, easy to get samples too I think) + recycled transformer and socket, proprietary stack from Microchip; pickit2+ required, http://tomeko.net/mikroserwerPIC.php
  • #4 15350507
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
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  • #5 15350877
    abyss
    Level 14  
    In my naivety I thought that ESP8266 is a development version of "ethernet" chip and it is equally popular :)
    Let me be more specific, because I haven't written about it - I want to make myself about 20 of these sensors + possibly actuators with relay, scattered in different parts of a 25x80m plot and a medium-sized house, and at the same time not to "go broke".
    Some will definitely be on the aforementioned ESP8266 but for some of the more remote ones I can use the existing Ethernet Cat 5 cabling and the 24 port switch I already have, and WiFi in two, maybe three locations.
    Ali and Ebay most preferable, I have accounts and I'm in no hurry for the project.

    Thanks to a simple hint from Peter999 (I didn't know what to ask - that it has a specific name "Ethernet module / shield" ) and a suggestion from ostregotomas I found this thread https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic1388652.html and modules based on the ENC28J60 (~2.21 Euros), but I need to read if it can be used - looks like it needs an atmega (like the ATMEGA328P-PU? ~1.23 Euros) and some small components and board to work with.

    The alternative seems to be an arduino and an "ethernet shield" (e.g. Chinese UNO R3=~3 Euros and UNO Ethernet Shield W5100 R3 ~4.6 Euros) - cool, convenient, but due to the number of units planned I want to minimise the unit cost.

    I'll read more quietly about the Wiznets (that's some family of controllers it seems?), it seems to be a bigger and interesting topic.
    (Prices from Ali).

    Thanks for the hints and if anyone has more - I'd love to hear :)
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  • #6 15350942
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
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    #7 15350967
    michalko12
    MCUs specialist
    Explain why you want to use a cable by force if you are going to do a WiFi version anyway which is likely to come out cheaper. Why the double work? If you have the time then wait for the ESP32, it will be Eth + Wifi + Bt in one.
  • #8 15350968
    abyss
    Level 14  
    @Piotrush999:
    You can insofar as you still have to add/add an enclosure to everything. With one piece it's not a problem but with a bit more the size starts to matter. I'm still wondering what the power supply will look like, but that's a separate topic. Thanks for the hints :)

    Added after 4 [minutes]:

    michalko12 wrote:
    Explain why you want to use a cable by force if you are going to do a WiFi version anyway which will probably come out cheaper. Why the double work? If you have time then wait for the ESP32, it will be Eth + Wifi + Bt in one.

    Oh, then I'll probably wait :) For now, I've ordered a couple of pieces of ESP8266, sensors and some serial/usb port to communicate with it for testing.

    As for the "cable" - maybe it's a matter of my age and lack of confidence in something that can be interfered with by "radio". Some of the detectors would probably also be plugged into the alarm system (activating it if necessary) - I'd like to avoid false alarms as much as unauthorised access.
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    #9 15351088
    Stefan_2000
    Level 20  
    abyss wrote:
    Thanks to a simple hint from Peter999 (I didn't know what to ask - that it has a specific name "Ethernet module / shield" ) and a suggestion from ostregotomas I found this thread https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic1388652.html and modules based on the ENC28J60 (~2.21 Euros), but I need to read if it can be used - looks like it needs an atmega (like the ATMEGA328P-PU? ~1.23 Euros) and some small components and board to work with.

    The alternative seems to be an arduino and an "ethernet shield" (e.g. Chinese UNO R3=~3 Euros and UNO Ethernet Shield W5100 R3 ~4.6 Euros) - cool, convenient, but due to the number of units planned I want to minimise the unit cost.


    The ATMEGA328P-PU can easily be programmed in the Arduino environment - then you have loads of ready-made examples, libraries.



    abyss wrote:
    I'm still wondering how the power supply will work, but that's a separate topic

    Ethernet has the advantage over wifi that you can use Power over Ethernet and with one cable have both control and power. The ENC28J60 is the 10Base-T standard at which PoE is trivial (read: cheap). PoE allows you to push up to a couple of dozen watts, so enough to drive a couple of relays or detectors. It seems to me that for domestic applications it is a very interesting idea.
  • #10 15351138
    abyss
    Level 14  
    Stefan_2000 wrote:

    abyss wrote:
    I'm still wondering what the power supply will be like, but that's a separate topic

    Ethernet has the advantage over wifi that you can use Power over Ethernet and with one cable have both control and power.

    PoE (injection) I use with IP cameras, I have been testing for a few weeks and I am rather satisfied, the cost of one set was 1,89 Euro from the Chinese. That's why, incidentally, I also thought about a cable - because I have to pull the power supply "somewhere" anyway. I have two wifi cameras and I much prefer it when they go on cable, because at 10 metres through the roof/walls of buildings, the wifi signal was lost repeatedly.

    Added after 2 [hours] 13 [minutes]:

    P.S..
    Or maybe there is a chip/module available that does such a job "over mains" 230V ? It would be worth a look in many places.

    P.P.S..
    And yes I was trying to get away from the "internet of things" by setting up a thread - and so transferred :)
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  • #11 15351788
    KeinXor
    Level 24  
    Wait for the ESP32 chip from Espressif, any moment now it will be on the market. It is the new incarnation of the ESP8266.
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    #12 15355518
    deus.ex.machina
    Level 32  
    Most modern uCs have Ethernet MAC + PHY built in (10Mbps almost all, 100 some).
    If you're looking for something relatively cheap and powerful I'd check out the XMOS range - they're interesting chips that allow you to do a lot of things in software.
  • #13 15355746
    abyss
    Level 14  
    I'll keep an eye on the ESP32 for now because I've already ordered an ESP8266 and I assume that if it's the same company then the programming/handling will be similar too. It's been a long time (~20 years) since I've done anything with electronics, so I don't want to throw myself into overly difficult projects. I need to prepare at least the workstation itself.
    Regardless of the "helped", I'm very happy that I got so many substantive replies on the topic and there were no fights "which is better" :)
  • #14 15363528
    rwi
    Level 12  
    In truth, harnessing Ethernet for control is like building a motorway for just a few cars. The fact that you can use PoE doesn't appeal to me, true PoE requires "getting along with the source", the switch needs to know it can safely supply power, so you won't use more decent switches (PSE) anyway.
    And using PoE power supplies connected in series - ok, you can, but then you still need to use a DC-DC converter to make 5V or 3.3V from that 48V.

    Using the ESP8266 has the advantage that it is very cheap ($2 each from China) and power can be supplied from any source (in timed wake-up circuits it can also be battery powered)

    If you want to build a network in a topology of several buses with power transmission to communicate with microcontrollers, it is better and cheaper to use RS485 for communication
    and use 12V or 24V with a thicker wire and you can immediately give it to the coils of the relays and use a linear or pulse stabiliser to power the system.

    As a central element you can use the BeagleBone Black has 4 hardware UARTs on board to which you can immediately add RS485 interface circuits and you have 4 communication buses on each for up to 32 devices - if not enough you can add more and run the UARTs programmatically on the remaining GPIOs (there are dozens in total). Linux (Debian, Ubuntu and others) on board, you put any software or web page for control, access over Ethernet, all software sits on 4GB of flash no SD problems like in RaspberryPi.
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