Renault Zoe 22kW Electric Car Charging: Cable Diameter, Type, Voltage & Protections

Hello,
I am at the stage of building the electrical installation for charging the Renault Zoe electric car with a maximum power of 22kW, currently it is under renovation and I have to choose the location of the cable for this purpose. Could any of the forum members help me choose the diameter and type of such a cable? For sure 5-core cables, a string or a wire, I do not know yet. Could someone clearly calculate and present the currents, voltages, voltage drops across the cable, individual wires? What cable thickness should be chosen, what protections should be used in the switchgear - differential, overcurrent breaker, etc. There is a chameleon charger in the car, which adjusts its own charging parameters depending on whether a 1-phase or 3-phase cable is connected to the car. It is not a DC charger, but an AC charger with a maximum charging power of 22kW and Type 2 and Mennekes plugs. I will be very grateful for any help.

Nobody can help ...? Or rather, nobody wants to help ...?

Quote:

Could someone clearly calculate and present the currents, voltages, voltage drops across the cable, individual wires? What cable thickness should be chosen, what protection should be used in the switchgear

You have provided too little information.
How much power are you going to get from the AC grid?
You didn't write this. Cable, cord. security adjusts to the planned power consumption.

Does your network have the power you want to download?
You won't get as much power from the web as you like.
I suspect you don't have that power.

"Does your network have the power you want to download?"
The maximum continuous power is 22kW with a 400V 3-phase power supply. The instantaneous power may be slightly higher.
"You won't get as much power from the web as you like."
I am aware of this. My network has a capacity of 30kW, such a contract I have signed with the energy distributor - contractual capacity.
"I suspect you don't have that power."
I have, if it is necessary, to change to a higher one because I can bring max. 50kW changing only the pre-meter protections.

The car can download a maximum of 22kW at 3 phases 400V no more and as the battery charges, the power consumption decreases because this is the battery charging characteristic.

A request for help to explain to me the selection of cable thickness and overcurrent and residual current protection in the simplest possible way.

malpol wrote:

A request for help to explain to me the selection of the cable thickness and overcurrent and residual current protection in the simplest possible way.

Please: Selection of overcurrent protection, RCD connection, and 220/380 and 380/660 motor for beginners, and more ...

PS You do not give anything in detail about the power / charging parameters - these 22kW are unrealistic in terms of powering / charging the vehicle you have at home. Maybe you will throw in a catalog card, it will be easier to tell you something.

malpol wrote:

A request for help to explain to me the selection of cable thickness and overcurrent and residual current protection in the simplest possible way.

A colleague expects instructions on how to design the entire installation.
Selection of cable thickness and .......
This is not a problem for an amateur. Which, in addition, has absolutely no orientation.
A colleague has to hire a designer to make the installation project.
A site visit is necessary.
This type of thing is designed by people with design permissions.
This is a higher "degree of expertise" than an electrician.

Buddy malpol, EV charging with a power of 22kW takes place typically from a three-phase circuit with 32A protection. If the cable attached to the car has a Type 2 (Mennekes) plug, you can install an appropriate socket at the end of this circuit or directly a charging station with a cable with such a plug, you can also install a classic CEE 32A 5P socket and connect the car through an adapter / cable with such a plug ( it is possible that such a cable is already included with the car, if not, you can always buy it).

The cross-section of the conductor will depend on the method of laying, length and short-circuit conditions in the switchboard from which the circuit will emerge (and these can be determined on the basis of measurements or calculations (if the exact network and installation parameters are known)). At the moment, I can only say that if the cable is to be laid in plaster (assuming the arrangement C), it will be at least 5x4 mm ^ 2 under the condition of long-term load capacity, although taking into account the fact that such a cable would basically work at the load limit, it would be worth taking 5x6 mm ^ 2.

A circuit breaker would be desirable, although for sockets> 20A it is not necessarily required. I mean the conditions in which the charger is operated - the user may deal with rain, snow or mud.

michcio wrote:

Buddy malpol, EV charging with a power of 22kW takes place typically from a three-phase circuit with 32A protection. If the cable attached to the car has a Type 2 (Mennekes) plug, you can install an appropriate socket at the end of this circuit or directly a charging station with a cable with such a plug, you can also install a classic CEE 32A 5P socket and connect the car through an adapter / cable with such a plug ( it is possible that such a cable is already included with the car, if not, you can always buy it).
.... it would be worth taking 5x6 mm ^ 2.

Do I understand correctly that having "power" in the garage 3x32A on a 5 * 10mm2 cable with a typical CEE 32A 5P power socket, I already have an EV charging station?
- and I only miss the appropriate adapter from this power socket to the one present in the car?
I am asking because I see that the madmen will force us, sooner or later, to electric cars, and I am just finishing the garage and I can add the cable to the other side of the wall, because, of course, cars do so that each has a different side of charging, on the front at the back on the side ...

Acer24 wrote:

Do I understand correctly that having "power" in the garage 3x32A on a 5 * 10mm2 cable with a typical CEE 32A 5P power socket, I already have an EV charging station?
- and I only miss the appropriate adapter from this power socket to the one present in the car?

In fact, yes.
More precisely, there is still no charger - there must be a charger between the mains and the car, because the charger in the car, in addition to connecting to the mains, also needs connection with the charger systems, among others. in order to determine the maximum current that can be taken from the network (such parameters are indicated by the charger).

If there is a CEE socket on the wall, you can buy a portable charger that looks like an extension cord with a CEE plug on one side, a car socket on the other, and a box (charger) with electronics on the cable. You can also install a wall charger with a cable and a car plug instead of the CEE socket (either in its place or on a separate circuit).

The charger cable should be long enough to reach the other side of the car, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Not every car can handle 3f 22kW. In fact, it's not a lot.
But at the stage of building a house, I highly recommend this solution.

Of the cheaper ones, only ZOE supports 22kW via AC. With the increase in battery capacity, more and more cars will be able to draw more power through AC chargers, mainly 3-phase.
It is definitely worth preparing the installation for AC 11-22kW.

Installations can be specially pulled from the meter for the charger. On the other hand, theoretically, during the second tariff at 16A you can get 88kWh and the largest battery in ZOE is 41kWh, which corresponds to a range of over 300 km.
What is the point of buying an electrician with such daily mileage?

I use two "chargers": a two-phase EVTUN which will theoretically deliver over 20A in one phase, and a three-phase Zencar.
Both are set to the lowest current of 6A and the cars in the morning are charged anyway.

A lot depends on how many electricians there will be in the family. Often in families there are already 3 cars. and they all need to be recharged. Sometimes a friend drops by and it is worth lending him electricity quickly ... especially cheap.
The more that the difference in the price of the installation is small.

I wonder when it turns out that the entire network will collapse with an increase in the number of electricians. A colleague has an allocation of 50kW, but the power industry does not have such power for every home. There is such a thing as the simultaneity factor and usually it is 0.2 -0.5 in homes, according to my knowledge, and here we have a fixed 1 all night and heat pumps in the area will definitely be found ...

In practice, no one will charge the car with full power every day (night) because there is no such need. The average passenger car in Poland covers 8000 km per year, i.e. barely 22 km per day. Assuming an average electrician consumption of 20kWh / 100km, Kowalski needs 4.5kWh per day, which can be delivered to the car by charging the battery with 4.5kW for just an hour, and by spreading it over the night, charging can be reduced to just a few hundred watts. Of course, after taking into account the losses and charging efficiency, this power will be a little more, but still not great numbers.
Even if someone needs to charge with 11kW or 22kW for several hours a day, statistically for a few neighbors it is enough to do it once every two weeks. On a larger sample (e.g. several dozen recipients of a given transformer station), the power consumption related to EV should average to some sensible, comprehensible values. In addition, such charging will most likely take place almost exclusively at night, when the network is lightly loaded.

I am just afraid whether this power is really needed because those who have heat pumps or heat directly with electricity also count on the 2nd tariff, and especially on frosty nights there may be a problem with this. I know that the factories usually charge me at night, but we were afraid whether these rules for housing estates would be able to do it, because they would be mostly burdened then, and not the larger ones from the industry. In the past, the load was minimal at night, and now when quite a lot of power comes out, especially on the PC for CO, and just loading cars. In addition, I have already heard from several people that electrics are bought to drive a lot over 50,000 km a year, because then it pays off due to the fact that the purchase price is about 2 times higher than that of a traditional car. For 10 or 20 km a day, the purchase will not pay off in a reasonable time ...

Jacek Rutkowski wrote:

In the past, the load was minimal at night and now when quite a lot of power comes out, especially on PC to CO

Unfortunately, but you probably do not know and repeat the myths.
Do you know how the PC works and what powers it consumes? do you know what SCOP is and what houses should be used with a PC?

Added after 5 [minutes]:

Jacek Rutkowski wrote:

In addition, I have already heard from several people that electrics are bought to drive a lot over 50,000 km a year, because then it pays off due to the fact that the purchase price is about 2 times higher than that of a traditional car. For 10 or 20 km a day, the purchase will not pay off in a reasonable time ...

oh .... and you only need to count instead of scare.
50,000 km are about 200 km per day after 250 working days a year.
200km is about 40kWh that needs to be refilled. It is 10 hours (overnight charging), 4 kW each - it is assumed that the houses usually have a contractual power of 12 kW. Is that so much?
So another myth again

For this heat pump, another 2-4 kW and 2 more cars on the farm for another 1-2 kW and still no problem with that? If that's the case, it's ok. But when I think about whole villages, there was no electricity before Christmas because everyone was baking, I'm not so calm anymore. Maybe you have more up-to-date data from mine on the Polish energy sector. I do not believe that the contracted power will be provided for all EVs at once.

Even reliable banks, when everyone comes to them for cash, they don't have it.
What are you talking about ?
After all, you are looking for problems by force.

If I am to have 2 electric cars and a PC, first:
1. He installs additional PV (if it's a house and I have space)
2. I increase the power from the indicated 12 to maybe 20kW.

Let us not consider the problems of energy through the example of a village in a rundown where no one even thinks about a new car, let alone an electric one. These networks were created in the 1980s and maybe even earlier. And it will be renovated someday and it will be OK.

Added after 2 [minutes]:

Think for yourself if if you were the owner of the power grid, you would like to ensure that everyone can use it 100%. Then consider how thick the cables would have to be and whether PLN 90 for 1kW of connection power covers the costs of its installation.

Do you think that when Orange installs so many optical fibers in the country, it has 600Mbit x the number of users at the exit from Poland? Any country, supplier?

I am aware that no one assumes the simultaneity factor of 1 and here is the problem of switching to PV and PC by many households, not only in the countryside but also in cities where you again have 100 cars under 1 block. There you will also ensure that everyone will not want to charge and it is full power if it has only one car and does not care about others? I am not really looking for problems, but I can see the problem of Black Out in winter and for a long time if the frost is really pressing and there will be problems with getting the repair crews.

wnoto wrote:

If I am to have 2 electric cars and a PC, first:
1. He installs additional PV (if it's a house and I have space)
2. I increase the power from the indicated 12 to maybe 20kW.

Third, you are producing in the summer when everyone in the village with PV is producing at the same time.
Fourth, you are charging for fall / winter / spring from coal.
How is "electricity" stored for six months? And so:
To the question: what is happening with the surplus of energy produced throughout the year in photovoltaics? Almost 14% of the respondents answered that they did not know, a 22 percent believes that the surplus goes to the energy store .
Other folk knowledge is here: https://www.elektro.info.pl/artykul/najnowsze...tauron-przepirectil-badania-wsrod-prosumentow

wnoto wrote:

Do you think that when Orange installs so many optical fibers in the country, it has 600Mbit x the number of users at the exit from Poland? Any country, supplier?

And the sun shines once over one house in the village, sometimes over another, so that the used coefficient of simultaneity from the 1980s would be as assumed by the designer (e.g. 0.4)?

There is already a problem with the panels because in places 270VAC is already exceeded in the network and the inverters turn off and the varistors at 270VAC also burn out in ADG equipment and even in fibaro modules ... Only that the inverters turn off and the chargers will probably try to charge up to about 100VAC more electricity taking. TVs, etc., will also want to work up to 90VAC ...

Jacek Rutkowski wrote:

There is already a problem with the panels

wnoto wrote:

What are you talking about ? After all, you are looking for problems by force.

wnoto wrote:

And it will be renovated someday and it will be OK.

Jacek Rutkowski wrote:

and cities where you have 100 cars under 1 block again. There you will also ensure that everyone will not want to charge and it is full power if it has only one car and does not care about others?

And do you remember the times when there was only one TV set in the house?
What did you expect the web would always take on. It takes time for that.
I have been writing for a long time that energy prices power too cheaply. We don't respect her. we expect 20kW on the spot. and often 10kW is enough for twice as long.

for such an exemplary block, you need to put up a new transformer to service these cars. In place of e.g. a petrol station -> no longer needed :)

And now the question - when will the first block with 100 charging places be in Poland?

Added after 1 [minutes]:

Jacek Rutkowski wrote:

panels are already a problem because in some places 270VAC is already exceeded in the network and the inverters turn off and the varistors at 270VAC

Such voltage should not be in the network. As far as I know, the max is 253V. Are there any new standards already in force?

Added after 3 [minutes]:

KonradGatek wrote:

wnoto wrote:

If I am to have 2 electric cars and a PC, first:
1. He installs additional PV (if it's a house and I have space)
2. I increase the power from the indicated 12 to maybe 20kW.

Third, you are producing in the summer when everyone in the village with PV is producing at the same time.
Fourth, you are charging for fall / winter / spring from coal.
How is "electricity" stored for six months? And so:
To the question: what is happening with the surplus of energy produced throughout the year in photovoltaics? Nearly 14% of the respondents answered that they did not know, and 22% believes that the surplus goes to the energy store.

We have knowledge gaps in many areas. Because we devote too much time to politics.
And what is the problem that they produce in this village and they turn off? Let them blame the installer for not taking measurements, checking only, selling them a crap.
There is too much electricity, the installations turn off automatically. You have to report to the power industry and wait.

Added after 2 [minutes]:

KonradGatek wrote:

Jacek Rutkowski wrote:

There is already a problem with the panels

wnoto wrote:

What are you talking about ? After all, you are looking for problems by force.

wnoto wrote:

And it will be renovated someday and it will be OK.

Yes it is a problem forcibly. Show me the electricity provider that is 100% capable of providing bandwidth for everyone.

And the second thing ... how many such victims are there? 10-20 thousand? for 800 thousand prosumers?
... "You are looking for problems by force"

Added after 2 [minutes]:

Jacek Rutkowski wrote:

Only the inverters turn off and the chargers will probably try to charge more and more current up to 100VAC.

Remember that then the amps increase and there are some limitations in the chargers. Even heat will turn them off.

Ultimately, electric cars will also stabilize the network. In the event of a sudden consumption, they will be able to temporarily return electricity to the network to support them.
But you have to think positively, not just look for problems. Problems must be dealt with

wnoto wrote:

Jacek Rutkowski wrote:

panels are already a problem because in some places 270VAC is already exceeded in the network and the inverters turn off and the varistors at 270VAC

Such voltage should not be in the network. As far as I know, the max is 253V. Are there any new standards already in force?

https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic3120890.html

wnoto wrote:

And what is the problem that they produce in this village and they turn off? Let them blame the installer for not taking measurements, checking only, selling them a crap.
There is too much electricity, the installations turn off automatically. You have to report to the power industry and wait.

For them I am looking for problems by force. And what is the problem that in this city they get married and their cars turn off? There is too little electricity, the installations turn off automatically. You have to report to the power industry and wait.

But that's exactly right. If there is no electricity, you will have to wait before driving the car. Maybe use the bus.
But it's not a problem. This is the exception today. The problem will be when there will be a lot of such cases.

The problem will be when there is no electricity for trams in the city because the cars will be charged Then the traffic lights will fall at the intersections and the lighting at night, which can be quite drastic combined with the darkness in the apartments ... In the morning it will be even worse because everyone will want to recharge and the blocked intersections will not help ...
It is such a small vision of what can happen due to outdated and inadequate electrical installation.
PV gives electricity during the day and we want to charge at night and even in the winter in six months.

PV is just one solution. In the event of a power outage, PSE has several mechanisms to avoid a system collapse. Blackout is not that easy.
In winter, combined heat and power plants must be operated. May there be the greatest number of them, and not heating plants which "waste" the raw material only for heating without producing electricity. In winter, it shouldn't be too bad - the current situation is a patchwork of several events. And I hope an exception to the rule.

For example, I have 12kW of power. And about 10kWh of daily consumption. In less than an hour, I can download it. And the remaining 23 hours, the whole network is wasted for me
You have to distribute the consumption of electricity in such a way that it matches the supply. The G12 tariffs are already lame. Ultimately, they will be dynamic. If there is little power in the network, it will be expensive and the power consumption automatically decreases.

Added after 2 [minutes]:

Jacek Rutkowski wrote:

due to outdated and inadequate electrical installation

Someone has to pay for it. Currently, companies will pay because individuals are controlled by the government.