Heating in the block: CO from the city vs own gas boiler room

adamlabedz wrote:

It's hard to disagree with that, Grandma used to smoke in the stove until recently and none of the neighbors looked into her coal-cart,

This is poorly defined - it should be in this case - none of the neighbors added it to the coal wagon,

adamlabedz wrote:

friends have individual gas heating in their block and no one looks at anyone's bills... Everyone looks after their own bills.

Correction factors have no meaning when billing by area. I guess that's why they were invented, to muddy what is clear and transparent, especially since their values are taken from the ceiling, just like the share of heating costs in common areas.
People are tossed with substitute topics, correction factors, cold neighbors, etc., and not why, for example, accounting for allocators raises so much controversy, but because for this you need some knowledge, imagination and willingness, and all this is missing and there is only such a justification for the dissatisfied and equally ignorant - spread your hands and say - that's how it turned out.

Thank you all for your help and valuable feedback.

We had another meeting yesterday on this topic, where the manager himself, after re-analysis, stated that the gas boiler room is out due to the negligible and questionable savings in relation to the value of the investment. The topic of allocators was also dropped due to general reluctance, so were heat meters - here the effect is similar to allocators and the cost is much higher. For now, we are reducing the ordered power and in the spring we return to the topic of modernization of the installation and here, to my surprise, a proposal to switch to individual gas heating was made and what is more, it was not bombarded after the first reading.

I hope that in the spring nothing will change and the co-residents will positively approach the subject despite the much greater nuisance of the investment.
I suspect the total cost will be a little higher than in the case of a boiler room, but the savings will be about 2-3 times.

In the case of individual gas heating, not only the heating installation, but probably also the gas installation will have to be modified - increasing the cross-section of the pipes.
Good luck.

In addition, each apartment will have to have its own flue adapted to the gas boiler.
In general, I would start with a feasibility study, especially from the formal and legal point of view.

Szyszkownik Kilkujadek wrote:

In addition, each apartment will have to have its own flue adapted to the gas boiler.

Not necessarily. This only applies to gravity boilers.
Condensation air intake and exhaust can be several dozen cm behind the wall with a horizontal outlet just above the boiler without a pipe up. This is what I see in many cases now.

gimak wrote:

for rework ... probably, also gas installation - increasing pipe cross-sections

There is no need. The gas supply tubes of a gas boiler are very thin. Thinner than any gas installation in a building.
If the residents agree, they will hire one designer who will take care of all formal matters, and perhaps also one contractor, which will significantly reduce unit costs in bulk. With the current technology of processing and connecting heating to individual boilers, it will not cause many difficulties.

DiZMar wrote:

Condensing air intake and exhaust can be several dozen cm behind the wall with a horizontal outlet just above the boiler without a pipe up. This is what I see in many cases now.

A block of flats, 45 flats, whether bright or dark kitchens are interesting - it can be a challenge.

sylba wrote:

A block of flats, 45 flats, whether bright or dark kitchens are interesting - it can be a challenge.

Bright or dark kitchens are no problem. A small angle is enough to hang the boiler and above it 20-30 for the intake-exhaust pipe and an even smaller angle for an individual gas meter, if there is not one yet.

jdubowski wrote:

In large cities, system heat is usually cheaper

I would rather risk saying the opposite, system heat in large cities is usually more expensive. Due to the extensive heating network and heat energy losses occurring in it. These losses are covered by everyone using the network.
System heat is largely an unavoidable and by-product of electricity production in a combined heat and power plant. This heat is generated anyway, regardless of whether it is needed or not, also in summer. It should be relatively cheap, unused and so it is wasted and unfortunately it is not cheap. I can see this after comparing the cost of heating m2 in a block connected to the network to a similar block heated from a local gas boiler house in my area.
Of course, as already mentioned, there is also the cost of building, maintaining and repairing the local boiler house, which should be taken into account in the overall calculation.

DiZMar wrote:

gimak wrote:

for rework ... probably, also gas installation - increasing pipe cross-sections

There is no need. The gas supply tubes of a gas boiler are very thin. Thinner than any gas installation in a building.

Such a remark came to my mind, at the in-laws in the block, at the beginning there was heating with tiled stoves. When they were laying the gas installation, only my father-in-law decided to switch to gas heating (inserts for tile stoves) and only his apartment has a gas pipe, with a diameter approximately half that of the other apartments.
After a few years, a heating network was connected to the block and a heating installation adapted to heat meters was installed in the block, but there were no such meters for several years, because the residents did not agree to it. Similarly, they did not agree, despite the manager's suggestion, to insulate the block, but they complained about the high heating costs.
The block has been insulated for several years and heat meters have been installed. After insulating the block, heating costs fell by about 1/3 already in the first year after the insulation.

DiZMar wrote:

Not necessarily. This only applies to gravity boilers.
Condensation air intake and exhaust can be several dozen cm behind the wall with a horizontal outlet just above the boiler without a pipe up. This is what I see in many cases now.

In multi-family housing too?

I'm coming back to the idea of switching from district heating to gas. What is the current cost of heating a building with gas and with a district heating network? The annual demand for heat is approx. 1300 GJ. The price for 1 GJ is approx. PLN 123 gross.

Setral wrote:

I'm coming back to the idea of switching from district heating to gas. What is the current cost of heating a building with gas and the heating network? The annual demand for heat is approx. 1300 GJ. The price for 1 GJ is approx. PLN 123 gross.

https://www.farmer.pl/energia/pgnig-od-cena-z...owych-nie-wzrosnie-od-nowego-roku,126418.html :
"The gas fuel tariff of PGNiG Obrót Detaliczny, approved by the President of the Energy Regulatory Office by decision of December 17th 2022, will be in force from January 1st 2023 to March 31st 2023. The price for gaseous fuel was set by the Energy Regulatory Office at less than PLN 650/MWh. The difference between the maximum price resulting from the above-mentioned act and the tariff for gaseous fuel for PGNiG Obrót Detaliczny approved by the President of the Energy Regulatory Office, will be covered by compensation paid to PGNiG Obrót Detaliczny from the Price Difference Payment Fund. subject to tariff protection, the maximum price of which will be PLN 200.17/MWh."

1 MWh equals 3.6 GJ, so the above-mentioned prices are PLN 180/GJ and PLN 56/GJ. Now multiply it by the efficiency of the boiler and the cost of the loan for the construction of the boiler house.

I wouldn't look at the current price from the tariff sent to us by PGNiG (which is off the charts, I think there was an update to PLN 0.51 in May), but I wouldn't look at the frozen price we pay as customers at the moment.

Because the current price from the tariff is burdened, among others, with higher gas purchase prices last year, i.e. also with gas pumped to storage facilities at recently higher prices.

There is also some inertia between the current gas market prices in Europe and prices for individual customers. The current tariff is a kind of subsidy for last year's unprofitable gas sales to households by PGNiG. And the surcharge comes from the taxes of everyone, including those who do not have gas.

The price of kWh from gas for household tariffs is currently PLN 0.51 net, and the frozen tariff is PLN 0.20 net (that is over 2.5 times less) for the gas fuel alone, the transmission is less than PLN 0.4. Market gas prices have returned to those from before the gas blackmail.

However, a good indicator of the real gas price that should be included in the individual tariff is the price for companies. And on March 15, it fell from 65gr to 35.3gr per kWh, at the start of 2023 it was almost 80gr. From May 1, less than 30.2 PLN/kWh
https://www.e-hotelarz.pl/artykul/89556/pgnig-obniza-cene-gazu-dla-biznesu/
https://www.muratorplus.pl/biznes/news-z-rynk...-kogo-czy-trzeba-zlozyc-wniosek-aa-JFSZ-f46o- 1imo.html

So since PGNiG sells gas to companies for PLN 0.30, it actually buys it much cheaper.

I think that ultimately, after frostbite, the price for individual customers will be between 30 and 40 PLN/kWh net with transmission.

sylba wrote:

If the installation layout is difficult to measure, and the allocators raise a lot of doubts because they allow you to manipulate the indications, then the division of costs by area seems to be the most reasonable.

Exactly, that's how it is with us and there was never a proposal to install allocators at a community meeting. Proper insulation and a good weather automaton controlling the node, taking into account not only air temperature but also wind strength, solve the problem.

adamlabedz wrote:

and some are indignant when the radiators are cold outside at +16C.

our radiators are cold at +14°C, and if someone is too cold in the apartment, they warm up with a heater and do not jojczy.
Earlier (after the modernization of the node) we set the heating switch-off to +12°C, but it was too little.

Added after 14 [minutes]:

adamlabedz wrote:

For now, we are reducing the ordered power and in the spring we return to the topic of modernization of the installation and here, to my surprise, a proposal to switch to individual gas heating was made and what is more, it was not bombarded after the first reading.

Winters are getting lighter and the maximum power is not used with us and we currently have 80kWh for a four-story terraced house, insulated. From what I remember, the maximum power demand oscillates around 72 kWh. The usable area of all 14 apartments is approx. 1100m². Since the creation of the community in 2001, we have reduced the ordered power three times. The original was over 150 kWh.

vodiczka wrote:

Since the creation of the community in 2001, we have reduced the ordered power three times. The original was over 150 kWh.

What is the annual savings?

Szyszkownik Kilkujadek wrote:

What is the annual savings?

I don't remember but the first reduction was high and significantly reduced bills, the next two are rather cosmetic.

So much writing and no specifics..
Loose remarks.
Is there room for a boiler room with a suitable chimney??? I doubt.
Boiler room - several boilers in a cascade. As far as I remember, a boiler room with a capacity of more than 100 kW requires CONSTANT service!
Individual boilers in apartments?? That is, a completely new installation of CO and CW in EVERY apartment at the expense and efforts of the resident??
As far as I remember, the installation of gas boilers (regardless of whether condensing or with a closed combustion chamber) with one common chimney in multi-family housing in Poland is unacceptable!
And, of course, chimney sweep reviews.
And the most important thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! Will you get PGNiG's consent for such a huge gas consumption, or is the gas network adapted to such a need - practically a high-pressure gas pipeline.

As far as I know, the issuance of NEW gas heating permits has been blocked (until the end of the PIS authority??)

Start by asking if you will get permission from PGNiG for gas. Connection conditions, pressure and expected consumption. Peak and medium.

So, stop beating old eggs and start with gassers and chimney sweeps.
It would be reasonable to insulate the building and install heat meters (you have to redo the entire CO installation. Or the meter has every radiator. Allocators make no sense.
And finally-
Our community - a building of 800 m2 (8 units of about 100 m2 each) boiler room 2 atmospheric boilers, 49 kW each in a cascade.
The whole "de novo" installation. Before that, either tiled coal-fired or small etagere with a boiler in the hall. Everyone has a heat meter. ZW and CW. Thermostats on radiators.
Cost - costs of gas + electricity and inspections of the boiler room (pumps, etc.) / the number of GJ used, the price is 1 GJ. Separately, the cost of heating water is calculated in a similar way. In addition, we have CW heated by the sun. 8 panels, 2 m2 each. In hot weather, the cost of heating 1 m3 is about PLN 2..
After the initial problems, the radiators do not heat! Check if you have heat in the apartment and not if the radiator is warm.
Why do I pay some money and you pay half of it?? 'Cause I'm wearing a sweater and you're only wearing shorts.
It helped. there is peace. It has been operating for 30 years
WW chairman of the board of the community