Heating in the block: CO from the city vs own gas boiler room

Hi.
I am a resident of a community consisting of 2 prefabricated blocks of 90 apartments each. The blocks were thermomodernized about 5 years ago, they are heated from the municipal network, we do not have heat allocators.
After the recent increase in heat, it got hot among the neighbors, because some of them are warm and they do not heat almost all winter, and some are indignant when the radiators are cold at 16C outside... who want dividers and those who are categorically afraid of them.
Yesterday we had a meeting on the above topic and our manager, who is also de facto an opponent of allocators, threw the topic of gas boiler rooms as a proposal to solve the problem.
As an argument, he gave the fact that in another community he manages, after the installation of the boiler room, the cost of heating m2 - which also includes the repayment of the loan taken to cover the investment - is about PLN 4, and after repayment of the loan - about PLN 2.50. For comparison, with us, the advance payment is currently PLN 5.9, so in my case, according to these calculations, I would save about PLN 1,600 a year.

Has anyone dealt with a topic like this? What does it actually look like in terms of costs, is it really that much cheaper solution? Or maybe someone here who is able to determine the approximate cost of such an investment?

Thanks and best regards
Adam

adamlabedz wrote:

The blocks are after thermomodernization about 5 years ago, they are heated from the municipal network

Let the manager (or another willing person) take it and recalculate it based on the invoices issued so far. In large cities, system heat is usually cheaper, in small cities the prices are very different, especially where the boiler house is a remnant of a liquidated industrial plant.

adamlabedz wrote:

in another community he manages, after the installation of the boiler room, the cost of heating m2 - which also includes the repayment of the loan taken to cover the investment - is about PLN 4, and after repayment of the loan - about PLN 2.50.

As for the cost of heating with natural gas - an example from my backyard - PLN 4/m2, a 30-unit PGS building + polystyrene insulation (warm compared to a large slab). There is no credit in this, only gas + costs of inspections and current repairs.

adamlabedz wrote:

Or maybe someone here who is able to determine the approximate cost of such an investment?

You also need to start with the required thermal power, you need to read the PEC invoices from the time when the frost was crackling.

BTW1 - is there room for boiler room, chimney?

BTW2 - DHW how is it heated?

jdubowski wrote:

Let the manager (or another willing person) take it and recalculate it based on the invoices issued so far. In large cities, system heat is usually cheaper, in small cities the prices are very different, especially where the boiler house is a remnant of a liquidated industrial plant.

Calculation of the manager is one thing, but it is good to consult elsewhere in accordance with the principle of "control is the basis of trust" :)

jdubowski wrote:

As for the cost of heating with natural gas - an example from my backyard - PLN 4/m2, a 30-unit PGS building polystyrene insulation (warm compared to a large slab). There is no credit in this, only gas costs of inspections and current repairs.

And here is the first turnout, the building cited by the manager is also of similar size, I don't know what it was made of but the said PLN 4 are supposed to include a credit.

jdubowski wrote:

You also need to start with the required thermal power, you need to read the PEC invoices from the time when the frost was crackling.

The power ordered from PEC is 0.854MW.

jdubowski wrote:

BTW1 - is there room for boiler room, chimney?

There are cellars, there is an attic, there are chimneys in the block, although I do not know if they are sufficient for a boiler room in the case of installation in the basement.

jdubowski wrote:

BTW2 - DHW how is it heated?

From junkers, for now, the topic of hot water from the boiler room is out. The boiler room was to be used only for heating the apartments.

Hi
Quickly found in the archives - for comparison :)



address 51 - cascade 2 x 100kW
address 57 - cascade 2 x 65kW

DHW tenants usually had electric.
from what I remember, 99% of boiler houses were made only for CO

mainly basements - chimney insert in the existing chimney
there was one addition to the block, the attic as well - a chimney through the roof :)

Everywhere cascades with two boilers - in case of failure of one, the other continues to work


The cost of the investment will probably begin to be clarified at the design stage

Regards

Yeah... It's nice to see everything new. Let's say 10 years will come to replace the gas boiler and the butt pain will start You need to do a thorough economic calculation, and not just look at the carrier itself. Anyway, gas prices will be released soon and it may be a lime. A good example are oil boiler houses - everyone switched to them until the price of heating oil was raised (early 2000s). Don't go into it without a thorough analysis.

adamlabedz wrote:

After the recent increase in heat, it got hot among the neighbors, because some of them are warm and they do not heat almost all winter, and some are indignant when the radiators are cold at +16C outside... who want dividers and those who are categorically afraid of them.

Heat allocators, as the name says, are used to determine the method of dividing heating costs, but as such they do not reduce heat consumption. Potential savings result from a change in the behavior of users, especially those who were heating up a lot before installing the allocators.
What you write about users' feelings - one warm, the other cold, is: i) the result of individual preferences; ii) the location of the apartment in the building (apartments located in the middle of a block of flats have a lower heat demand than those located at the gable walls or on the top floor); iii) poorly functioning installation - poor distribution of heat to individual apartments.
You have no influence on the feelings of users, but you can charge those who consume more heat with higher fees for the heat consumed - allocators or, even better, heat meters can help here. However, there will soon be an indignation of those who have flats that consume more heat because they are worse situated in a block of flats. In this situation, there is no simple answer and no simple solution, only a compromise.
The third issue is the functioning of the installation itself, including: selection of radiators for individual apartments, heat distribution (flow regulation), condition of the installation.
Just changing the heat source from msc to gas will not change anything from the point of view of heat demand. You can check whether you will pay less by comparing the amount of heat consumed per month and its price with the cost you will incur for the same amount of heat generated in the gas boiler room, including the outlays for replacing the heat source. In my opinion, the first step is to review and assess the functioning of the central heating and hot water installation and only then plan further steps on this basis.

vojtas1985 wrote:

Hi
Quickly found in the archives - for comparison
...

Thanks, you see, and these are some numbers Assuming such savings as in your example, our heating costs would be about 4.3, i.e. +/- it coincides with the costs mentioned by @jdubowski.

Counting further, both blocks have an area of approximately 9,650 m2, assuming savings on heating the meter of 5.90 - 4.30 = 1.60, which for both blocks gives us about 15,400 per month - which is what the maximum installment of the loan would have to be, so that at least in theory the investment made sense. Let's say a loan for 5 years, the first loan calculator gives about 750,000. The manager mentioned the quoted boiler room for 30 apartments with a cost of 150,000, so theoretically we are within the budget ...

For 5 years we break clean, then theoretically we are 25% ahead, as long as the difference in the price of gas to the price of heat from PEC does not change and until renovations are needed, as @Inkwizycja wrote about ...

A little saving compared to the amount of unknowns and risks along the way...
According to the manager's example, after paying off the loan, that community will be about 50% cheaper than the neighboring one heated with PEC, so we have a 25% turnout.

We have another meeting in a week, if my thick finger estimation above is confirmed, it seems to me that there is no point in going into it.

Added after 36 [minutes]:

It's smart to listen to it

sylba wrote:

Heat allocators, as the name says, are used to determine the method of dividing heating costs, but as such they do not reduce heat consumption. Potential savings result from a change in the behavior of users, especially those who were heating up a lot before installing the allocators.

This is exactly what I gave as an argument for allocators, the rising price of heat is one thing, and the behavior of residents is another. The blocks are old, some residents have been living in them from the beginning, even when they were factory blocks, and it is difficult to change their habits just by talking. In addition, not all of them are owners and belong to the community, a large part of the apartments belongs to a guy who bought them from the trustee after the bankruptcy of the plant and now rents them to old tenants and these, firstly, do not care about anything because it is not their apartment and secondly, they always heated it so the same and now they will be because "what will you do to us".
About 5 years ago we insulated the block - before that there was asbestos and it was cold in the corner rooms, even for me. After warming up, the heat consumption was supposed to drop, and somehow it didn't, and I see a big difference in temperature.

sylba wrote:

What you write about users' feelings - one warm, the other cold, is: i) the result of individual preferences; ii) the location of the apartment in the building (apartments located in the middle of a block of flats have a lower heat demand than those located at the gable walls or on the top floor);

You're right, with us practically every apartment is to some extent "corner" - the block consists of 2 parts of 4 apartments, connected by a staircase. In addition, there is free space above the top floor (injection-insulated), so the apartments are not directly adjacent to the roof. There is one apartment adapted from the attic and there, in fact, not only are the windows facing north, but there is also a direct roof.

sylba wrote:

iii) poorly functioning installation - poor distribution of heat to individual apartments.

It really seems to me that some inventory would be useful here, some of the apartments still have old cast-iron radiators, and some are replaced by new ones by the tenants. In addition, some of them are eliminated, usually e.g. in kitchens where there is no point in leaving the radiator behind the cabinet when fitted with furniture. Some also liquidated in bathrooms "because they did not heat". I myself have 4 heaters out of 6 left in the apartment and I use only 3 in the coldest weather.

sylba wrote:

You have no influence on the feelings of users, but you can charge those who consume more heat with higher fees for the heat consumed - allocators or, even better, heat meters can help here. However, there will soon be an indignation of those who have flats that consume more heat because they are worse situated in a block of flats. In this situation, there is no simple answer and no simple solution, only a compromise.

This is always problematic, although, first of all, different correction parameters are adopted for different apartment locations, and secondly, there is no need to immediately settle the divisors in the ratio of 50/50, you can assume 70/30 or 80/20, then the differences between the residents will not be so large and for some residents it will have a motivating effect.

As for the heat meters themselves, it is out of the question due to the price, our installation is "vertical" and on average there would be 4-6 devices for each apartment...

sylba wrote:

Just changing the heat source from msc to gas will not change anything from the point of view of heat demand. You can check whether you will pay less by comparing the amount of heat consumed per month and its price with the cost you will incur for the same amount of heat generated in the gas boiler room, including the outlays for replacing the heat source. In my opinion, the first step is to review and assess the functioning of the central heating and hot water installation and only then plan further steps on this basis.

I have the same feeling after the calculations in the previous answer. If heating with gas was actually so cheap compared to heat from PEC, then every second block would have such boiler rooms...

My opinion on the topic raised by the author of the topic - heating powered from the municipal network or own (gas) boiler room, apart from the cost of the investment itself, is that the cost of heating from your own boiler room should be lower than from the municipal network. This is due to the fact that the costs of the municipal network include the costs of maintaining the company itself, the costs of the heating network, these costs include the costs of heat losses on transmission lines, and the municipal network is extensive, so the losses will automatically be greater.
I was a bit interested in it, because my in-laws wanted to disconnect from the municipal network and switch to individual gas heating. Comparing the costs of heating in the in-laws' block with the costs in the same block, in flats where such heating was provided, the costs were definitely lower. The in-laws did not implement this plan, because the community did not agree to it, but they agreed to insulate the block and install heat meters. As a result, the cost of heating 1 m² in a block of flats was reduced from approx. PLN 3 to approx. PLN 2. I believe that this reduction was mainly due to the insulation of the block. On the other hand, the installation of heat meters and the settlement of costs based on them resulted in the differentiation of the costs of heating 1m² in individual apartments.
As for the installation of heat allocators, in my opinion, they can only work where members of a given community are honest with each other, and this is unlikely and will cause problems that have already been discussed on this forum, and related to the settlement of heat costs according to allocators. I advise the author of the topic to familiarize himself with the content of these topics.
In my opinion, the manager is honest that he warns you about allocators. Once you allow yourself to be let into this mine, in the heat settlement regulations, reserve the option of automatically returning to settlement by area, when settlements by allocators will raise doubts as to their legitimacy, and something like this will happen when the cost of heating 1 m² of an apartment by allocators , will be more than twice as large as heating 1m² in the entire block and the user of this apartment will question the settlement according to the allocators. Why am I writing about it, because I know from my own experience and it results from reading the topic that I recommended to read that the adopted bad regulations are very difficult to change later

gimak wrote:

My opinion on the topic raised by the author of the topic - heating powered from the municipal network or own (gas) boiler room, apart from the cost of the investment itself, is that the cost of heating from your own boiler room should be lower than from the municipal network. This is due to the fact that the costs of the municipal network include the costs of maintaining the company itself, the costs of the heating network, these costs include the costs of heat losses on transmission lines, and the municipal network is extensive, so the losses will automatically be greater.

I agree, and that's also the conclusion from previous calculations. Here, now we only need to properly estimate the costs to possible savings, whether taking into account other factors it will be profitable.

gimak wrote:

The in-laws did not implement this plan, because the community did not agree to it, but they agreed to insulate the block and install heat meters. As a result, the cost of heating 1 m² in a block of flats was reduced from approx. PLN 3 to approx. PLN 2. I believe that this reduction was mainly due to the insulation of the block. On the other hand, the installation of heat meters and the settlement of costs based on them resulted in the differentiation of the costs of heating 1m² in individual apartments.

In our case, the insulation of the block did not significantly affect the costs of heating the block ... Heat meters, as I wrote earlier, unfortunately also fall out.

gimak wrote:

As for the installation of heat allocators, in my opinion, they can work only where members of a given community will be honest with each other, and this is unlikely and will cause problems that have already been discussed on this forum, and related to the settlement of heat costs according to allocators .

If they were, it wouldn't be an issue now ;)

gimak wrote:

I advise the author of the topic to familiarize himself with the content of these topics.

I am not 100% sure of this solution either, although comparing the costs we incur with the costs of our friends, I have no scruples to vote for allocators. My brother lives 500m away in a community managed even by the same manager, the block is older but also insulated, he heats the same way as me, i.e. about half of the radiators and there the advance payment after the increase is PLN 4, not PLN 5.90 as we did, last year it was - clean with no surcharges or overpayments. Advance payments for both communities count the same people, so why the difference? People have subsidies, but from what I talked to the accountant, after these subsidies, the few people who heat the most get the rate we all have.

In my opinion, the difference is due to people's habits, previously they had coal stoves and an uninsulated block, so everyone was saving heat, when they insulated the block and made it central, it did not change people's habits. And with us, everyone heats as much as they want because, as in the communist era, they deserve it and no matter how many degrees it is outside the window...

adamlabedz wrote:

I am not 100% sure of this solution either, although comparing the costs we incur with the costs of our friends, I have no scruples to vote for allocators.

I don't have anything against allocators either, but as I wrote, they will pass the exam only if the users who are part of the community are honest. When this condition is not met, those who pluck and those plucked will appear very quickly. And what's worse, these plucked people do not find understanding, both among tribesmen and managers, they have little chance to stop being plucked - this results from reading topics from this forum and TV programs on this subject.
You don't know what kind of tribesmen you have in the community. That's why I wrote that it's worth in the settlement regulations - this is what the community adopts, there was a provision that allows you to return to the settlement of costs based on area, without changing it, because it requires the consent of the absolute majority of partners, and this is very difficult to implement.
To find out who the potential fraudster is, you will not have much opportunity, because you will not have access to the necessary data. The administrator has access to this data, but they do not want to share it, citing the protection of personal data. Anyway, even if you had them, apart from the fact that you could identify potential fraudsters, I doubt that you would decide to indicate them by name and risk suing for defamation, because this is not hard evidence. For the same reason, the administrators, although they have this data, prefer not to touch it.

adamlabedz wrote:

In my opinion, the difference is due to people's habits, previously they had coal stoves and an uninsulated block, so everyone was saving heat, when they insulated the block and made it central, it did not change people's habits. And with us, everyone heats as much as they want because, as in the communist era, they deserve it and no matter how many degrees it is outside the window...

Habits in this case certainly change, but not immediately, it takes time, even a few years.
Besides, with such an analysis whether something is real or not, you need to have some real (hard) comparative data, and there are usually no such data.
By chance, I have such hard data regarding heat settlement based on heat meters, right after their introduction, when residents did not change their habits acquired when billing based on area. Thanks to this, I have a comparison of what the costs look like divided by heat meters and divided by area - what are the differences.
Most often, nonsense settlements are justified by the fact that grandparents (meaning - pensioners) close the valves on the radiators and get warm from the neighbors. Only in this case the allocator does not count impulses and the heat meter in the node does not count GJ. However, when there are cheaters, they do not turn off the valves on the radiators, the radiators heat, and the allocators do not count impulses (that's the trick), but the heat meter in the node counts GJ, which must be settled according to falsified indications of the allocators.

adamlabedz wrote:

Advance payments for both communities count the same people, so why the difference?

They just enter only the data they have received into the program. The program, based on an algorithm specified in the settlement regulations approved by the community, divides the costs into individual apartments. These people are usually not competent to interpret the results of this division, but they also have no interest in falsifying them.

Someone somewhere whispered that if the property can be connected to the "municipal" heating system, then such a property should be connected to such a source.
Which means that the gas source will have to be removed and connected to such heating.
But that's crap for now.

misiek1111 wrote:

Someone somewhere whispered that if the property can be connected to the "municipal" heating system, then such a property should be connected to such a source.
Which means that the gas source will have to be removed and connected to such heating.
But that's crap for now.

You got it right at the end. They're just farts .

A tool for this has already been created. List of types of heating in individual premises/buildings. All it takes is one night of drunken officials and the changes will be enacted.

adamlabedz wrote:

About 5 years ago we insulated the block

Did you lower the ordered power then? If not, it would be necessary to calculate the demand for power after insulation and order reduced power (in PECu).

In my opinion, one important issue that affects the price of energy has not yet been addressed: the cost of CO2 emissions.
CHP plants, as far as I know, have to pay for CO2 emissions. Boiler rooms in multi-family buildings probably do not have to pay such fees?

Szyszkownik Kilkujadek wrote:

In my opinion, one important issue that affects the price of energy has not yet been addressed: the cost of CO2 emissions.
CHP plants, as far as I know, have to pay for CO2 emissions. Boiler rooms in multi-family buildings probably do not have to pay such fees?

Every citizen bears these costs. They are hidden in the price of fuel or energy.
Unfortunately, for the time being, the price of grid energy is higher than electricity from gas.
Where individual gas boiler rooms are installed, heating bills are lower.

The problem is that in order to be able to install a gas boiler room, the building must meet several criteria. This is not always possible.

I would start with the valuation of the boiler room, because these amounts are closer to single-family houses than to blocks of flats. Ordered 800kW, I see 8 furnaces of 100kW, decent 50,000 each, plus a boiler room, it will definitely not fit in 1 million. After all, it's a ridiculous idea. Certainly, district heating is cheaper than gas + operation. In addition, it is necessary to find out whether the gassing plant is able to deliver so much gas, because it is gas at medium pressure and a pressure reduction system on the recipient's side. I think that with gas it will be times 2. In addition, the problem of these costs is that no one pays for their heat, so they put it on full and the windows are open.

I suggest you modernize the risers and install heat meters, these are heat-powered water meters. Not allocators. They will simply count the heat used by each tenant down to the watt, and in total joules, each tenant will physically pay as much as they use, and the block will stop releasing 80% of the heat collected from the network to the atmosphere

Przybyłek wrote:

I suggest you modernize the risers and install heat meters, these are heat-powered water meters. Not allocators. They will simply count the amount of heat used by each tenant to the Watt, each person will physically pay as much as they consume, and the block will stop releasing 80% of the heat collected from the network to the atmosphere

but the problem will remain what to do with those who are surrounded on the side, above and below, neighbors who warm, i.e. they do not have to and will have "proof" that they warm themselves by force of will.

Przybyłek wrote:

I would start with the valuation of the boiler room, because these amounts are closer to single-family houses than to blocks of flats. Ordered 800kW, I see 8 furnaces, 100kW each, desirable 50,000 each, plus a boiler room, it certainly won't fit in 1 million. After all, it's an absurd idea. Certainly, district heating is cheaper than gas operation. In addition, it is necessary to find out whether the gassing plant is able to deliver so much gas, because it is gas at medium pressure and a pressure reduction system on the recipient's side. I think with gas it will be times 2.

Exactly such a "thick finger" estimate was given at the meeting, 2 boiler rooms with 3-4 furnaces, each about 500 kpln.

Przybyłek wrote:

In addition, the problem of these costs is that no one pays for their heat, so they put it on full and the windows are open.

Unfortunately, no change in heat source will change that. It's in the head and as @gimak already mentioned, until everyone is honest, it will never be economical or fair.

Przybyłek wrote:

I suggest you modernize the risers and install heat meters, these are heat-powered water meters. Not allocators. They will simply count the amount of heat used by each tenant to the Watt, each person will physically pay as much as they consume, and the block will stop releasing 80% of the heat collected from the network to the atmosphere

With heat meters, it is currently rather unfeasible due to the fact that the installation is vertical and in each room there would have to be such a heat meter ... theoretically manageable, but from the cost perspective, I suspect no one will go for it.
When it comes to the modernization of risers so that there is "one entrance" to each apartment, there is no option to do it without heavy renovation, some of the apartments are after Total revolutions by Szęlągowska and no one will be able to forge walls to run pipes across, it would involve dismantling the kitchen, forging bathrooms and even floors, so that, for example, pipes do not go underfoot at the balcony door, etc....

As for the billing of heat meters and allocators, it seems to me that it differs, of course, in the accuracy of the measurement, but the final effect in both cases is the same, some people will have refunds, some will receive additional payments, some will turn off completely and count on the heat of the neighbor, only undermine the indications of the device will be more difficult.

michał_bak wrote:

Przybyłek wrote:

I suggest you modernize the risers and install heat meters, these are heat-powered water meters. Not allocators. They will simply count the amount of heat used by each tenant to the Watt, each will physically pay as much as it consumes, and the block will stop releasing 80% of the heat collected from the network to the atmosphere

but the problem will remain what to do with those who are surrounded from the side, above and below, neighbors who warm, i.e. they do not have to and will have "proof" that they warm themselves by force of will.

I don't quite see the problem here. Everyone pays for their apartment why should they look at others that they have cheaper because they have a better apartment. I'm building a house, I have a big loan or should I go to my neighbor to get it. He paid it with me and I will help him? He is, for example, 3 times smaller. Do people from this block also finance fuel for their cars collectively? So everyone pays equally, and those who don't have cars will be the worst, and those who have a v8 will be the best.

michał_bak wrote:

but the problem will remain what to do with those who are surrounded on the side, above and below, neighbors who warm, i.e. they do not have to and will have "proof" that they warm themselves by force of will.

We do not have those who are surrounded on all sides, each apartment is to some extent corner, of course there are corner ones from the south and corner ones from the north where it is warmer and colder by design, the rest are corner from the side of the staircase, i.e. partially. There are, of course, those on the ground floor and those on the last one, with the last one also being spray-insulated in the space between the roof.

There are appropriate correction parameters for everyone used in the settlement of at least allocators, I did not delve into the topic as it is with heat meters, but I suspect that it must be similar to be fair.

adamlabedz wrote:

Przybyłek wrote:

I would start with the valuation of the boiler room, because these amounts are closer to single-family houses than to blocks of flats. Ordered 800kW, I see 8 furnaces, 100kW each, desirable 50,000 each, plus a boiler room, it certainly won't fit in 1 million. After all, it's an absurd idea. Certainly, district heating is cheaper than gas + operation. In addition, it is necessary to find out whether the gassing plant is able to deliver so much gas, because it is gas at medium pressure and a pressure reduction system on the recipient's side. I think with gas it will be times 2.

Exactly such a "thick finger" estimate was given at the meeting, 2 boiler rooms with 3-4 furnaces, each about 500 kpln.

Przybyłek wrote:

In addition, the problem of these costs is that no one pays for their heat, so they put it on full and the windows are open.

Unfortunately, no change in heat source will change that. It's in the head and as @gimak already mentioned, until everyone is honest, it will never be economical or fair.

Przybyłek wrote:

I suggest you modernize the risers and install heat meters, these are heat-powered water meters. Not allocators. They will simply count the amount of heat used by each tenant to the Watt, each person will physically pay as much as they consume, and the block will stop releasing 80% of the heat collected from the network to the atmosphere

With heat meters, it is currently rather unfeasible due to the fact that the installation is vertical and in each room there would have to be such a heat meter ... theoretically manageable, but from the cost perspective, I suspect no one will go for it.
When it comes to the modernization of risers so that there is "one entrance" to each apartment, there is no option to do it without heavy renovation, some of the apartments are after Total revolutions by Szęlągowska and no one will be able to forge walls to run pipes across, it would involve dismantling the kitchen, forging bathrooms and even floors, so that, for example, pipes do not go underfoot at the balcony door, etc....

As for the billing of heat meters and allocators, it seems to me that it differs, of course, in the accuracy of the measurement, but the final effect in both cases is the same, some people will have refunds, some will receive additional payments, some will turn off completely and count on the heat of the neighbor , only undermine the indications of the device will be more difficult.

Of course, you are right, but if everyone has 4 heat meters for PLN 500, it will give PLN 2,000 for 90 apartments, that is PLN 180,000. However, the gas connections will not be sure.

Unfortunately, allocators do not count heat, only temperature differences. It is enough to heat in other rooms and open the windows in others.

Przybyłek wrote:

I don't quite see the problem here. Everyone pays for their apartment why should they look at others that they have cheaper because they have a better apartment. I'm building a house, I have a big loan or should I go to my neighbor to get it. He paid it with me and I will help him? He is, for example, 3 times smaller. Do people from this block also finance fuel for their cars collectively? So everyone pays equally, and the worst will be those who do not have cars and the best those who have a v8.

I've been thinking about what you wrote for a long time, and after thinking about it for a long time, it's hard not to agree with it or at least in theory, because in fact the apartment on the intermediate floors, despite all radiators turned off, will be heated from the floor, ceiling and on the one hand by the neighbor, and also by the risers that pass through his apartment, and according to what you wrote the heating cost will be equal to 0 and he it will be relatively warm.

Fortunately, here comes the coefficient of dividing costs into fixed costs and those from the allocator, just set them to, for example, 70/30 or 80/20 and the difference between thermophilic and "Janusz of heating" will be small.

adamlabedz wrote:

As for the billing of heat meters and allocators, it seems to me that it differs, of course, in the accuracy of the measurement, but the final effect in both cases is the same, some people will have refunds, some will receive additional payments, some will turn off completely and count on the heat of the neighbor , only undermine the indications of the device will be more difficult.

I share the opinion

Przybyłek wrote:

Everyone pays for their apartment why should they look at others that they have cheaper because they have a better apartment. I'm building a house, I have a big loan or should I go to my neighbor to get it. pay him back with me and I will help him? He is, for example, 3 times smaller. Do people from this block also finance fuel for their cars collectively? So everyone pays equally, and those who don't have cars will be the worst, and those who have a v8 will be the best.

In the same block, the value of apartments varies, depending on their size, location and finish. Unfortunately, some residents will be heated by others, and some will not have such a possibility. It is what it is and nothing will change that. Heat meters would help to distribute charges more precisely. If the installation layout is difficult to measure, and the allocators raise a lot of doubts because they allow you to manipulate the indications, then the division of costs by area seems to be the most reasonable. In order to reduce heat consumption, it may be worth considering an audit of the installation and control of the supply temperature, e.g. periodic temperature reduction (at night) or the introduction of weather regulation (if it is not provided by msc).

Przybyłek wrote:

Of course, you are right, but if everyone has 4 heat meters for PLN 500, it will give PLN 2,000 for 90 apartments, that is PLN 180,000. However, the gas connections will not be sure.

Unfortunately, allocators do not count heat, only temperature differences. It is enough to heat in other rooms and open the windows in others.

Yes, you are right, the cost is incomparable, but will the difference between the settlement of the heat meter and the allocator be so big and more fair?
Quoting a page: "Reading a heat meter or allocator is therefore only one of the components of the method of calculating heat consumption by a given apartment." which only tells us that in addition to the indication of the heat meter, we will also pay fixed costs - the same as with the allocator, and so it is logical even taking the proverbial "Janusz" who will turn off all radiators for the whole winter, with the heat meter option he will pay only fixed costs and the rest the value will be paid by the neighbor, with the allocator option, despite turning off the radiators, the allocator will "indicate consumption" because the apartment is warm from the neighbor and finally the difference between the neighbors will be smaller.
At least that’s how I see it, maybe someone has more practical experience with the difference in the settlement of heat meters and allocators and is able to justify the sense of paying extra for the installation of heat meters instead of allocators?

sylba wrote:

adamlabedz wrote:

As for the billing of heat meters and allocators, it seems to me that it differs, of course, in the accuracy of the measurement, but the final effect in both cases is the same, some people will have refunds, some will receive additional payments, some will turn off completely and count on the heat of the neighbor , only undermine the indications of the device will be more difficult.

I share the opinion

Przybyłek wrote:

Everyone pays for their apartment why should they look at others that they have cheaper because they have a better apartment. I'm building a house, I have a big loan or should I go to my neighbor to get it. pay him back with me and I will help him? He is, for example, 3 times smaller. Do people from this block also finance fuel for their cars collectively? So everyone pays equally, and those who don't have cars will be the worst, and those who have a v8 will be the best.

In the same block, the value of apartments varies, depending on their size, location and finish. Unfortunately, some residents will be heated by others, and some will not have such a possibility. It is what it is and nothing will change that. Heat meters would help to distribute charges more precisely. If the installation layout is difficult to measure, and the allocators raise a lot of doubts because they allow you to manipulate the indications, then the division of costs by area seems to be the most reasonable. In order to reduce heat consumption, it may be worth considering an audit of the installation and control of the supply temperature, e.g. periodic temperature reduction (at night) or the introduction of weather regulation (if it is not provided by msc).

It won't do anything here, let the one who has an apartment inside pay nothing, if the neighbors close the windows and screw down the radiators, he will also start heating. Verticals are a common part, they will not be counted by heat meters. So tenants will have to pay for it jointly. Weather control is for sure. What will bring down the temperature at night? It's not a condensing boiler. Someone will be cold, he will turn the radiators to the max. I think on average it would be 50% cheaper if people had to pay for themselves. I like 20 degrees. When I'm in my girlfriend's apartment it's 26 degrees, I feel bad about it, the worst thing is that the radiators have been turned off for at least 5 years and the window is ajar all the time and often wide, because it can't stand it. Humidity 20%z I wonder how much the neighbors behind the walls have. I even know people who don't have heads because for what. I know people who say that they pay, they deserve it, if it turns it will be cheaper? NO.

Added after 3 [minutes]:

adamlabedz wrote:

Przybyłek wrote:

Of course, you are right, but if everyone has 4 heat meters for PLN 500, it will give PLN 2,000 for 90 apartments, that is PLN 180,000. However, the gas connections will not be sure.

Unfortunately, allocators do not count heat, only temperature differences. It is enough to heat in other rooms and open the windows in others.

Yes, you are right, the cost is incomparable, but will the difference between the settlement of the heat meter and the allocator be so big and more fair?
Quoting a page: "Reading a heat meter or allocator is therefore only one of the components of the method of calculating heat consumption by a given apartment." which only tells us that in addition to the indication of the heat meter, we will also pay fixed costs - the same as with the allocator, and so it is logical even taking the proverbial "Janusz" who will turn off all radiators for the whole winter, with the heat meter option he will pay only fixed costs and the rest the value will be paid by the neighbor, with the allocator option, despite turning off the radiators, the allocator will "indicate consumption" because the apartment is warm from the neighbor and finally the difference between the neighbors will be smaller.
At least that's how I see it, maybe someone has more practical experience with the difference in the settlement of heat meters and allocators and is able to justify the sense of paying extra for the installation of heat meters instead of allocators?

Not quite, the allocator will show zero because it is based on the difference in the temperature of the radiator relative to the room. If you open the window, it will show heat even though the radiator is turned off. On the other hand, as I wrote, why should I pay for my neighbor's heat? He is 30 degrees, I am. 22. without heating and what? If he was 22, I would be 18, I would have to heat and pay.

sylba wrote:

If the installation layout is difficult to measure, and the allocators raise a lot of doubts because they allow you to manipulate the indications, then the division of costs by area seems to be the most reasonable. In order to reduce heat consumption, it may be worth considering an audit of the installation and control of the supply temperature, e.g. periodic temperature reduction (at night) or the introduction of weather regulation (if it is not provided by msc).

We have had the weather automat for several years, it is difficult to determine how much savings it has brought, but it is thanks to it that we know that some neighbors make a fuss about cold radiators when it is 16C outside
The subdivision by meter, of course, is only sensible as @gimak wrote about dividers if all neighbors are honest and play sensibly. As there are some heating on the resistance with the windows open, the settlement only from the meter ceases to be fair.

For now, there is a request to reduce the power to PEC.

What can we learn from such an audit? How much power do we actually need? need to replace radiators in some apartments? I'm asking because I don't know much about the subject and when I read about energy audits, nothing else comes to mind.

Added after 13 [minutes]:

Przybyłek wrote:

It won't do anything here, let the one who has an apartment inside pay nothing, if the neighbors close the windows and screw down the radiators, he will also start heating.

Yes, but before the one in the middle has to start heating, those on the sides will have much colder than him :)

Przybyłek wrote:

I think on average it would be 50% cheaper if people had to pay for themselves.

Hence, in my opinion, there is a colossal difference between the cost of heating a single-family house and a half-sized apartment Honesty is what can reduce costs the most, and as we know from the People's Republic of Poland, what is common can be used at will, because it's not mine, so the cost of heating a m2 of a flat will not even come close to the cost of heating a m2 of a house for a long time...

Przybyłek wrote:

I like 20 degrees. When I'm in my girlfriend's apartment it's 26 degrees, I feel bad about it, the worst thing is that the radiators have been turned off for at least 5 years and the window is ajar all the time and often wide, because it can't stand it. Humidity 20%z I wonder how much the neighbors behind the walls have. I even know people who don't have heads because for what. I know people who say that they pay, they deserve it, if it turns it will be cheaper? NO.

This is exactly the biggest problem, only there is no way to overcome it.

adamlabedz wrote:

What can we learn from such an audit? How much power do we actually need? need to replace radiators in some apartments? I'm asking because I don't know much about the subject and when I read about energy audits, nothing else comes to mind.

When writing about the audit, I was thinking about reviewing the heating system to see what it includes, whether there are regulators, what size radiators, etc. It seems that radiators, like the whole installation, are common parts, so the community can influence what radiators are used and how they are equipped. It would also be possible, for example, to determine the theoretical demand for heat by each apartment and account for heat consumption, taking such demand into account as an indicator. Then everyone will pay, even the one who turns off the radiators.

I will start with the correction factors and whether they are so important.
Question 1 - how they were/are used when blocks/tenement houses were/are heated with coal stoves.
Question 2 - how are they used in newly built blocks and tenement houses, where there is individual gas or electric heating for each apartment and then everyone pays exactly as much gas or electricity as they use.

The difference in the settlement of heat costs when billing according to individual heat meters and allocators.
I will write how it is settled in the block of in-laws with individual heat meters installed.
The regulations for the settlement of heat costs were approved by the community. There are no correction factors taken into account.
The cost of heating the common areas, or rather losses, because there are no separate rooms, and there are no radiators in the staircases (they have been dismantled), results from the difference between the indication of the heat meter in the heating node and the sum of indications of individual heat meters - that is, it is a specific measurable value, and not taken from the ceiling as in the settlement according to allocators.
Common costs are shared equally between the premises. The costs of starting and stopping heating are divided in the same way.
Fixed costs, resulting from the ordered power and readiness to provide it, are divided in proportion to the area of the apartment.
The apartment user pays: fixed costs + the cost of heating the apartment (resulting from the indication of the individual heat meter + common costs + the cost of stopping and starting the heating.
The calculation is simple, logical and legible.
Of course, the rules of heat settlement according to heat meters can be complicated and the settlement made illegible by introducing various coefficients taken from the ceiling, but this is the will of the community - if you have sheets, so will you sleep, just be warned, later the rules are very difficult to change.
I have not come across any controversies regarding the correctness in the public opinion regarding heat settlements according to heat meters. This is mainly due to the fact that heat meters show a specific value in GJ, and not, like allocators, a dimensionless value, but also (this is my opinion) that heat meters installed outside the apartment are usually closed. It is then very difficult for the user of the apartment to manipulate the heat meter. Probably, the situation with heat meters installed in apartments, directly at the radiator, could change, because the user of the apartment would not have any difficulties in manipulating the heat meter, as is the case with allocators.

gimak wrote:

I will start with the correction factors and whether they are so important.
Question 1 - how they were/are used when blocks/tenement houses were/are heated with coal stoves.
Question 2 - how are they used in newly built blocks and tenement houses, where there is individual gas or electric heating for each apartment and then everyone pays exactly as much gas or electricity as they use.

Too bad most people don't think so.
It's hard to disagree with this, Grandma used to smoke in the stove until recently and none of the neighbors looked into her coal-fired boiler, mother-in-law heated with electricity in the previous apartment and despite the fact that she lived on the ground floor, she had no grudge against the neighbor from above that she "steals her heat", friends have individual gas heating in their block and no one looks at anyone's bills... Everyone looks after their own bills.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid that in blocks like mine, where a large number of people have lived "forever", it will be impossible to introduce such an approach...