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Selection of loudspeaker impedance for the amplifier.

micho a 110544 16
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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • In general, the basic rule is that the impedance of the loudspeaker must not be lower than the minimum impedance specified on the back of the amplifier with which the amplifier works. On the back of the amplifier, as a rule, the speaker impedance on the Western minimum is written, the Polish has a number and the oma symbol. Why ?? because anyone who knows the law of ohms knows that reducing the resistance by 2 times at the same voltage will increase the current by 2 times. As a consequence, the loss power of the power transistors of the control transistors increases, and the load on the power supply increases. The result of this is in 70% of cases thermal damage to the power transistors (collector-emitter breakdown or more often a complete breakdown between each junction of the transistor). Due to the galvanic connection of the elements in the power amplifier, it often causes an avalanche of other damages before the fuses react. And it is not, as often uninitiated people write, that connecting a 4-ohm loudspeaker to an 8-ohm amplifier always gives a 2-fold increase in power. This is complete nonsense resulting from ignorance of how the amplifier works. 90% of amplifiers have a symmetrical unstabilized power supply, which shows considerable voltage fluctuations during intense control. With a higher load, this voltage "squats" even more, so in intensive control it is even lower than for 8 ohms. Consequently, there is no 2-fold increase in power. Yes, there are cases that a 2-fold increase in power is especially in the Polish amplifiers of the older date, made with a huge reserve of power and without short-circuit protection. Therefore, I personally think that it is really not worth doing such experiments. However, you can connect a loudspeaker with an impedance higher than the minimum specified by the manufacturer. It is a very advantageous solution for the amplifier because the current and, consequently, the power loss decreases. The amplifier simply heats up less. The disadvantage of this solution is the power drop. In this case, it is rarely 2x with a 2x increase in impedance. This is also due to the operation of the power supply. Less load = less current = greater instantaneous voltage.
    Crossover and its impedance distribution
    Generally, when building amateur loudspeakers, the easiest way is to take the impedance of the bass speaker as the impedance of the entire loudspeaker. This is a big simplification because, as it is known, in practice, different speakers work for a given frequency, e.g. at a crossover frequency of 500hz for a crossover of 3 watts 6db / oct for a frequency of 500hz the amplifier sees both the impedance of the bass and midrange drivers because they both carry this frequency. However, in amateur conditions, it is usually not possible to measure the crossover well and plot the impedance characteristic of the loudspeaker as a function of frequency. Another argument is that in the bass band the most power is "located". As a result, the greatest currents flow there and it is the impedance of the bass speaker that has the greatest impact on the load on the amplifier. Another simplification is that in an amateur speaker all speakers should have the same impedance. It is possible to use a tweeter with an impedance greater than the woofer in order to equalize the efficiency of the loudspeaker (then the use of an attenuator is avoided), However, a speaker with a lower impedance should not be used. The fact that there is less power there does not entitle to the fact that in the range of medium or high tones one can load the amplifier with super-low impedances. Generally, you should aim at using simple crossovers at low powers. This is due to the inability to test an extensive crossover, and theory is theory, practice is practice. An extensive multi-way, poorly designed crossover network is an unfavorable burden for the amplifier and may lead to its destruction.

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    About Author
    micho a
    Level 35  
    Offline 
    micho a wrote 3344 posts with rating 136, helped 183 times. Live in city zd.-wola koło łodzi. Been with us since 2004 year.
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  • #2 3983302
    Dreamer_1
    Level 12  
    If you can write, I would like to add something from myself.

    A big simplification at the beginning is to treat 4 ohms as stiff 4 and the same for 8 ohms. There are loudspeakers with a minimum impedance much lower than the rating plate (some B&W models) and at this point the amplifier has to be chosen more durable because instead of 8 we have a decrease to 3ohm !!!

    If the manufacturer writes that the minimum impedance is 8 ohms, and the parts used (power transistors, heat sink, power supply - although here it is more a bridge) work with a margin, you can easily connect 4 ohm speakers. There are many constructions that use parts that are not butt joint but with spare, and there are real possibilities of connecting a wide range of loudspeakers. If we do not have such an amplifier, just do not overdo it with the volume knob and check the temperature of the amplifier, and nothing should go wrong.

    Another correction is that the increase in the impedance of the loudspeaker makes life easier for the amplifier, but only for the transistor one. In the lamp, the opposite is true and this should be remembered. Including for this reason, the sound should not be turned on without connected speakers. Of course, there are structures resistant to such situations, but there is no point in tempting fate.

    greetings
  • #3 3985369
    Rezyslaw
    Level 15  
    rather, without the loudspeakers attached, the amplifier sees a very high impedance
  • #4 4006560
    fis
    Level 20  
    Hello interested.
    I believe that it is worth paying attention to the fact that in some designs of power amplifiers, even with the redundant capabilities of the power supply and actuators, the short-circuit protection circuit of the amplifier output may treat the reduction of the impedance value - as seen by the amplifier - as a short-circuit condition, and when forcing a high output power to introduce unpleasant distortions.
    Greetings!
  • #5 4331286
    zn21
    Level 18  
    The truth is that a decent amplifier can "play" on any loudspeaker ensemble. Even if it is written on the amplifier at the 8 ohm speaker output, you can easily connect 4 ohm speakers and nothing will happen. You just can't overdrive the amps. The electrostars go down to 0.5 ohms and somehow cope with them. Only for tube lamps should be connected to the outputs in accordance with the given.
    A good amplifier will play with any speaker groups, regardless of their impedance.
    If someone has a different opinion, let him measure the output impedance of his amplifier.
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  • #6 4333679
    jarekny
    Level 1  
    On another diyaudio.pl forum, I posted a question about connecting 4? Speakers to an 8? Amp. This blog will probably ask a little stupid about such a basic thing, but unfortunately I don't know. I have 3 speakers (left, right, center) 4? http: //www.snellacoustics...etails/3434.asp and I wanted to buy a receiver because what they are connected to at the moment is not the best class. I know you should get something good for these speakers, but I don't feel like spending too much. Everything that is within the limits of price decency, for example, http://www.sony.pl/view/S...Cinema+Receiver unfortunately has 8? outputs.
    Question: does it have any effect on the quality of the music received and can I damage something by doing such a combination. I will be grateful for your response. I accept
    but I see that here I have a ready answer and I do not have to worry if I do not set the knobs to more than 50%. Am I right? I don't know why, but in the USA (only the most expensive recivers have impedance change options. I even found Onkyo TX-SR 805, but the price for this monster is about $ 900 a bit higher than my budget. I would be grateful for checking Onkyo TX-SR705 parameters http: // www .onkyousa.com / model.cfm? class = Receiver & m = TX-SR705 & p = i, please give feedback, it will (theoretically) withstand 50% of the volume. One more question, if I connect an 8? subwoofer, what will happen in combination with three 4? speakers (not I'm going to connect more speakers) Phew, but I wrote to it, I will be grateful for the opinions.
  • #7 4334485
    clauf
    Level 12  
    If you do not unscrew the knob in half, you can be calm, nothing will get damaged - if you overdo it, the thermal protection should work in equipment of this class, and in the worst case only the fuses should shoot. Each piece of equipment has some power reserve, so I think that even 60-70% of the power should be safe.

    If you connect an 8ohm subwoofer with the same efficiency, it will be 2x too quiet. In order for the 8ohm subwoofer to match the 4ohm speakers in terms of performance, it should have a 3dB higher efficiency / effectiveness (SPL). You can set the volume of the subwoofer higher and it will also sound as it should.
  • #8 4376849
    arti13
    Level 32  
    I will add my 3 groszy, I have the proprietary loudspeakers on which 8R is written, I connect the ohmmeter and it knocks out 12R, that's fine, but if I had 4R instead of 8, I would burn a taste, so I first measure the resistance and only know what taste I can connect to
  • #9 4378278
    Ptolek
    Level 36  
    Only you measure resistance, not impedance, and that is the difference. So what did you bring to this topic?
    The theory that an 8 ohm amplifier can work with a 4-ohm loudspeaker, but only to the limit of clipping, or "at half power" is also nonsense. An even more interesting situation is when someone thinks that half power = potentiometer set to the middle, this almost never happens. A few more things should be clarified, but why, if someone writes what his opinion is, and what I write, it will disappear in the crowd of other posts.
  • #10 4388079
    arti13
    Level 32  
    and what is the difference between impedance and resistance ?? As for the 8R amp and 4R loudspeakers, it is a fact that not to half the power but only to a certain limit when the output current is still safe for the tip
    I heard that there are logarithmic potentiometers in the amplifiers and therefore 1/2 knob of volume is not half the power, if it was linear, maybe it would be closer to the truth, well, I mean?
  • #11 4388169
    Ptolek
    Level 36  
    arti13 wrote:
    I heard that there are logarithmic potentiometers in the amplifiers and therefore 1/2 knob of volume is not half the power, if it was linear, maybe it would be closer to the truth, well, I mean?

    You understand well, but that's not all. The point is also that the input signal level does not always correspond to the nominal level, i.e. the maximum power of the amplifier is not always at the maximum set level on the potentiometer. But with that, we are already departing from the topic.
    But it is also not true that the maximum output current of the power amplifier cannot be exceeded. The reason is simple, for the same output current, for different load impedance, the power of losses in the power transistors is different.
    As for the concept of impedance, please refer to the literature. But as a rule, in the case of loudspeakers, when I speak of impedance, at least I mean the average impedance in the entire band, that is, the one that, for a given musical signal, is the same load for the amplifier as a resistor of this value. I am talking about this because the impedance of the loudspeaker system is not always constant across the entire frequency band, and the power distribution is not equal across the entire band, but rather close to pink noise.
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  • #12 4388190
    arti13
    Level 32  
    Oh, that is, the amp may have too weak input signal and then I will not get full power and when it is too big, for example, in the middle of the potentiometer, it will be full power and then overdrive, yes? and
  • #13 4393947
    pitagraba
    Level 2  
    Forgive me for interfering with the question, but I am wondering about something .. At the beginning of the topic someone wrote that connecting an amplifier without speakers is not good - I have been doing this for a year, I have an amplifier connected to my computer and headphones connected, loudspeakers disconnected, after my nephew's visit they are not suitable out - he tore the foam around the diaphragm (spring?) with his finger. Is it wrong? So there must be loudspeakers connected, even when I press Speakers Off and headphones are connected? I will add that I have the AT9100 ZRK. Thanks for the topic - this is what I have been looking for a long time, and forgive me for interfering.
  • #14 4394340
    Ptolek
    Level 36  
    arti13 wrote:
    Oh, that is, the amp may have too weak input signal and then I will not get full power and when it is too big, for example, in the middle of the potentiometer, it will be full power and then overdrive, yes? and

    Yes.
    pitagraba wrote:
    At the beginning of the topic, someone wrote that connecting an amplifier without speakers is not good

    This applies to tube amplifiers. If you have a transistor, it can run without load. If you have a tube one, you can connect a resistor of about 47-100 ohms in parallel to the output, if you plan to use it without load.
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  • #15 4395234
    pitagraba
    Level 2  
    Ptolek wrote:

    This applies to tube amplifiers. If you have a transistor, it can run without load. If you have a tube one, you can connect a resistor of about 47-100 ohms in parallel to the output, if you plan to use it without load.

    Hmm .. AT9100 is rather solid-state .. So there is no problem if it works only on headphones? One more question - is it harmful to the amplifier if one channel is loaded with higher impedance and the other with lower impedance?
  • #16 4397687
    arti13
    Level 32  
    rather, only one channel will take more current and do not forget that the loudspeakers must have impedations at least as supported by the amplifier
  • #17 4804621
    clauf
    Level 12  
    Connecting a loudspeaker with an impedance lower than the rated amplifier is never completely safe. But the amplifiers that we buy in the store always have a certain amount of stock - unless they are some no-name that gives the power of PMPO.

    In addition, if we are reasonable and we do not connect a 1.5V source to the amplifier, only a normal line output like from a CD / DVD player, tuner or even a computer (0.775V) and we do not unscrew the VOLUME knob too much - it has a logarithmic scale, so if we have a 100W amplifier, half we don't have 50W, but 20W at most.

    At the same time, the volume depends on the efficiency of the loudspeaker, i.e. the SPL parameter. If the speaker has an SPL of 90dB, it has 90dB at 1W, 93dB at 2W, 96dB at 4W, 99dB at 8W, 102dB at 16W, 105dB at 32W, 108dB at 64W and 111dB at 128W. By convention, the 3dB level corresponds to a double increase in the volume, so the difference between 100W and 64W is only about 1.5 times - which is small.

    Now about the speaker impedance itself. There is a constant supply voltage in the amplifiers, so the maximum power is defined by the formula P = U * U / R. So if we have an amplifier of 100W at 8ohm, then at 4ohm we have theoretically 200W, with 2ohm it would be 400W. Of course, some element of our amplifier may not withstand it, but if we connect even a 2ohm loudspeaker (unless the short-circuit protection works) and we do not exceed the 100W level, our equipment is safe.

    And there is also the matter of impedance for the dummies. Impedance is a complex quantity. Impedance consists of resistance and reactance. Resistance is a real constant resistance, such as a resistor, and this is what we measure with an ohmmeter or multimeter. Reactance is the imaginary part of the impedance and varies as a function of frequency. Reactance is influenced by coils and capacitors, and in the loudspeaker we have a coil that "plays". In some loudspeakers, impedance may coincide with resistance, but this is rarely the case. And in this drawing you have an example of the impedance characteristic of some STX: http://www.stx.pl/charakterystyka/GDN-14-50-4-SC-IMP.jpg

Topic summary

The discussion centers on the selection of loudspeaker impedance in relation to amplifier specifications. It emphasizes that the loudspeaker impedance should not fall below the minimum impedance rating of the amplifier to prevent thermal damage to power transistors. Participants note that some loudspeakers may have lower actual impedance than their rated value, necessitating careful amplifier selection. It is generally safe to connect 4-ohm speakers to an 8-ohm rated amplifier if volume levels are kept moderate. The conversation also touches on the differences between resistance and impedance, the importance of understanding amplifier output characteristics, and the potential risks of connecting mismatched impedances. Additionally, it is highlighted that tube amplifiers require specific load conditions to avoid damage, while solid-state amplifiers can operate without a load.
Summary generated by the language model.
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