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Optimum arrangement of cables and conduits in a domestic installation

naxed 1194 17
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  • #1 18365249
    naxed
    Level 10  
    A warm welcome to you,

    I'm trying to draw myself an installation diagram for a detached house to lay cables. And I am trying to do the best and easiest + with a back-up for the future, so that the installation can be extended if necessary.
    The house is made of expanded concrete, also I already have grommets sunk in the walls, hence the desire to limit the amount of cables and WAGO, but I want it to be safe. For this I will want to do sonoffs or supla in boxes, so I am trying to fill some of them as little as possible with connectors.
    Of course, the installation will be pluss-free.

    I'm thinking of something like this. In the diagram, two stair buttons, one 'lamp' and an outlet for more lamps on the same circuit (under separate switches). This way, I have a 3-wire cable going to the box from the switchboard, a 3-wire cable between the stairs and a 4-wire cable to the lamp in the ceiling (an extra wire with a phase, so that I can run the circuit further and possibly install some signal amplifiers there, a smart-home, speakers or who knows what else in a few years). Obviously 4-wire with a single light point, when there will be a lamp with the possibility of partially switching the lighting, then 5 wires will go.
    Does this have arms and legs, or is it better to connect the lamp more traditionally from the second staircase (i.e. I go there with a 4-wire cable: S1, S2, N, PE), and split the circuit in the first staircase (scheme 2)?
    Of course, a variant of this scheme is still a 4-wire cable between the staircases - in general I think I should add PE there - for safety reasons in case of damage to the wires with a drill, for example. Although I'd rather run the cables as separate conductors anyway, so the chance of drilling goes down dramatically.

    Suggestion:
    Optimum arrangement of cables and conduits in a domestic installation
    .

    An alternative closer to tradition:
    Optimum arrangement of cables and conduits in a domestic installation


    What about connecting the cables to further points in the circuit in the false ceiling? For me, this would be most convenient - few connections in boxes, fewer cables and more space for home controls
    Optimum arrangement of cables and conduits in a domestic installation


    Pardon the makeshift diagrams :)
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  • #2 18365331
    Krzysztof Reszka
    Moderator of Electrical engineering
    naxed wrote:
    I'm trying to draw myself an installation diagram for a detached house to lay cables. And I'm trying to do the best and easiest + with a back up for the future so that the installation can be extended if needed.
    .
    Mate start with the type of mains, connection power. in this house. Have an electrician design the installation . You can do all the physical work ; forging, laying cables etc. Leave the connections and the connection to the electrician.
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  • #3 18365339
    osiniak75
    Level 35  
    naxed wrote:
    I am trying to draw myself a diagram of an installation in a detached house to lay cables
    .
    I'd like to see the result of the installation, let's hope it's not a joyful creation in the style of "mister who fucked you up like that".
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  • #4 18365340
    kokapetyl
    Level 43  
    naxed wrote:
    I am thinking of something like this
    .
    Think it through again.
    Figure one, between the stair switches (3x1.5) ? state what colours and what you will use them for?
    As for me, between them should go 5x1., possibly 4x 1.5.In the first option I have more possibilities.
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  • #5 18365432
    naxed
    Level 10  
    kokapetyl wrote:
    naxed wrote:
    I am thinking of something like this
    .
    Think it through again.
    Figure one, between the stair switches (3x1.5) ? state what colours and what you will use them for?
    As for me, between them should go 5x1., possibly 4x 1.5.In the first option I have more possibilities.

    Two communications (S1, S2) and a phase to the lamp (S3).
    Just note that I would like to go out to the lamp from the first box (closer + the diagram in this arrangement suits the needs of Sonoff and SUPLA), so I don't see the need for 5 wires here. 4 as much as possible, I think PE would have to be given to stick to the safety letter :) .

    Krzysztof Reszka wrote:
    naxed wrote:
    I'm trying to draw myself an installation diagram for a detached house to lay cables. And I'm trying to do the best and easiest + with a back up for the future so that the installation can be extended if needed.
    .
    Mate start with the type of mains, connection power. in this house. Have an electrician design the installation . You can do all the physical work ; forging, laying cables etc. Leave the connections and the connection to an electrician.
    .
    Explain to me why I need to flood the forum with information about the type of connection when I am asking about laying cables on a single circuit of several amps? I'm not commissioning this project, I'm doing it myself as I'll be wiring a lot of things to SUPLA, just the final design to check.
  • #6 18365455
    elpapiotr
    Electrician specialist
    Fellow naxed, please don't lavish and state
    Quote:
    what colours and what you will use them for?
    .
  • #7 18365466
    Krzysztof Reszka
    Moderator of Electrical engineering
    naxed wrote:
    Explain to me why I need to flood the forum with information about the type of connection when I'm asking about laying cables in a single circuit of several amps? I'm not commissioning this project, I'm doing it myself as I'll be wiring a lot of things to SUPLA, just the final design to check.
    .
    Because you wrote like this.
    naxed wrote:
    I'm trying to draw myself an installation diagram for a single-family house
    .
    What you have drawn is a section of this installation.
  • #8 18365488
    naxed
    Level 10  
    elpapiotr wrote:
    Kolego naxed, please don't lavigate and specify
    Quote:
    what colours and what you will use them for?
    .
    Colours in accordance with the diagram, description also on the diagram.

    A 3-wire cable enters the junction box with staircase no. 1, which goes to the light point via the connectors, in one of the connectors the phase enters staircase switch no. 1. Communication colours according to the diagram go to staircase switch no. 2. From staircase switch no. 2 a cable comes back which will feed the phase to the light point.
    At the light point, standard, PE to the lamp, N and phase from the second fader to the lighting connector. The rest (L, N, PE from the distributor) continues to the next light point of the circuit in question.

    Krzysztof Reszka wrote:
    What you have drawn is a section of this installation.

    Sorry, you're right - generally drawing it out isn't really a problem, but I'm trying to make some space in the pessels and make life easier when connecting controls via WiFi, so I'm thinking of an alternative way of doing the staircases.
  • #9 18365536
    kokapetyl
    Level 43  
    naxed wrote:
    Colours in accordance with the diagram, description also on the diagram.
    .
    My understanding is that it won't be a wire, just individual conductors.
    What is with the "consecutive tubes in the circuit" ? (fig 2 and 3)
    according to the diagram they will be permanently connected to the power supply ? I think some mistake has crept in ?
  • #10 18365558
    naxed
    Level 10  
    kokapetyl wrote:
    naxed wrote:
    Colours in accordance with diagram, description also in diagram.
    .
    I understand that this will not be a wire, just individual wires.

    I would very much like wires everywhere, somehow I am more convinced. But due to the fact that it will be tight in some places, I don't know if I will squeeze the whole wires through :/.

    kokapetyl wrote:
    naxed wrote:
    Colours according to the schematic, description also on the schematic.
    .
    What's with the "consecutive tubes in the circuit" ? (Figures 2 and 3)
    according to the diagram they will be permanently connected to the power supply ? I think some mistake has crept in ?
    .
    No, there I simply envisage a further circuit (the drawing is part of the vestibule + corridor circuit) - i.e. we are already running the wiring as standard to the switches/next staircase and subsequent lamps. Just to illustrate that the installation/circuit will have further continuity. Because with one lighting point and two staircase switches, there is no point in trying, even if I put WAGOs all over the place, the Sonoff/SUPLA cubes will still fit.
  • #11 18365583
    retrofood
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    naxed wrote:
    .
    I would really like wires everywhere, somehow I am more convinced. But due to the fact that it will be cramped in some places, I don't know if I'll be able to squeeze all the wires through :/

    You post a topic in the professional section and you are talking rubbish. You haven't the faintest idea about the workmanship of the installation or the safety rules in force.
    Another example of joyful furdiness .
  • #12 18365655
    naxed
    Level 10  
    retrofood wrote:
    You are posting in the professional section and you are talking rubbish. You haven't the faintest idea about the workmanship of the installation or about the safety rules in force.

    Thinking? IMHO the subforum description does not correlate with your thinking
    Optimum arrangement of cables and conduits in a domestic installation
    You're right, my Dear - I don't consider myself a professional because I don't take money for it, but I have two hands and I've done more complicated things in my life ;) And according to the description, the topic was created regarding the design of installations

    retrofood wrote:
    Another example of joyful fury .
    .
    PS. Be consistent with your footer at least, and please spare me the need to look at middle school-derived creativity, even in italics
  • #13 18365675
    retrofood
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    naxed wrote:
    .
    You're right, my Dear - I don't feel I'm a professional because I don't take money for it, but I have two hands and more complicated things in my life I've done ;) And as described, the topic was created regarding the design of the installation
    .
    So please post such information as is necessary for the design of an electrical installation, not off-topic variations.

    PS. And no Dear, please.
  • #14 18366344
    kj1
    Electrician specialist
    naxed wrote:
    I think an EP would be in order to stick to the letter of safety
    .
    Not only would it "fall out", but it is necessary.
    Every circuit must have a protective conductor. Thus, in Figure 1, a protective conductor must also be run to the box. This conductor is coloured yellow-green, and cannot be used for other purposes.
    It is also a good idea to have an N conductor in this box (because a power supply may be needed). So it is best to put a five-conductor wire in there.
    As for three-conductor cables, the most available and cheapest are brown-blue-yellow-green. Unfortunately, you cannot use such a wire for correspondence between circuit breakers (because yellow-green must not be used for any other purpose than protection). Of course, you can look for a cable without blue and yellow-green conductors (to be honest, I don't know if they produce such - I have never had the need to buy one), but such a cable will certainly be more expensive not only than a four-conductor one, but probably also than a five-conductor one.
    naxed wrote:
    but I have two hands and have done more complicated things in my life
    .
    Don't underestimate the Electrics. It is a very proud and envious persona. And it can punish you not only with extra costs, but with taking your life or the lives of your loved ones.
    You've already made a fool's errand by laying the pipes before designing the installation. And now you're trying to, pardon the pun, wipe your arse with glass. Don't be surprised if you hurt your ass.

    You need to take a paving machine or a jackhammer and forge the routes you'll need, not fit the installation to the pipes you've laid.
    SONOFs? Great. But how many? What if they start secretly interfering?
    But good luck
  • #15 18366603
    naxed
    Level 10  
    kj1 wrote:
    Not just "should", but it is necessary.

    Believe me many electricians found this idea a waste of cable :< hence the consultation here, because for me PE should be there, that's why I'm taking up the subject. Thanks for the reaffirmation :) .

    kj1 wrote:
    It's also worth having the N conductor in that box (because a power supply might be needed). So it's best to lay a five-conductor cable there.
    .
    This is where I have my doubts about ever using this, everywhere in the ceilings will be fed with a set, but in the switch boxes I have to rethink. After a couple of decades with cans without N I can't work out why I need it, but all in all the market is thriving.

    kj1 wrote:
    When it comes to three-wire cables, the most available and cheapest are brown-blue-yellow-green. Unfortunately you cannot use such a wire for correspondence between circuit breakers (because yellow-green must not be used for any other purpose than protection). Of course, you can look for a wire without a blue and yellow-green conductor (to be honest, I don't know if they produce such - I've never had the need to buy one), but such a wire will certainly be more expensive not only than a four-conductor one, but probably also than a five-conductor one.939399d1aa .
    And here I have already been advised by several electricians to lay single wires rather than conductors in the conduit - because it is easier to manoeuvre with a steel, easier to select the wires. The argument was even made that during drilling the wires have a chance to separate, and that those insulated together guarantee a short circuit ;) .

    kj1 wrote:
    Don't underestimate Electricity. She is a very proud and envious persona. And it can punish you not only with extra costs, but with taking your life or the lives of your loved ones.
    You've already made a fool's errand by laying the pipes before designing the installation. And now you're trying to, pardon the pun, wipe your arse with glass. Don't be surprised if you hurt your ass.You should take a paving machine or a hammer and forge such routes as you need, not adjust the installation to the pipes you have laid.9339d1aa .
    You might have read in the first post that this is a house made of expanded clay - that's not why you pay extra for smooth walls to groove them unnecessarily. So no one has made a fool of themselves here, the peszle were designed by an electrician. They are in the right quantity, selected for the designed installation. But personally, I've never done an installation like this so I'm just nervous about whether it will all fit in there - the contractor says they've never had a problem, but still.... I have always laid traditionally, by tiling.

    kj1 wrote:
    SONOFs? Great. And how many? What if they start secretly interfering?
    .
    I don't have a definitive number yet, I think I'll close in on the ground floor at 15 units. 5 roller shutters, a few sockets, LED strips, a few light points. Do you have any experience of disruption? Because I can't quite imagine it, at the moment I have several running on one network and I don't note any problems. Also on forums dedicated to the topic I have not come across such reports.
    At home, I'm planning 2-3 dedicated WiFi networks for them on different channels (depending on how many eventually come out), which will be independent of the main WiFi network in the house - although this is more likely to be overkill
  • #16 18366627
    CYRUS2
    Level 43  
    osiniak75 wrote:
    I would like to see the effect of the completed installation, let's hope it's not a joyful creation in the style of "mister who fucked you up like that"
    It is possible that this will be the case.
    Why - because this is the first installation that a colleague is designing.
    Those who built the house say - if I built again,I would do things differently.
    That's why it's worth getting help from someone who has experience in this area.
    In terms of 'smart' systems too.
    How will the manufacturer not provide service in 20 years ?
  • #17 18366665
    naxed
    Level 10  
    CYRUS2 wrote:
    Why - because it's the first installation that a colleague is designing.

    And yes, at home the first :) .

    CYRUS2 wrote:
    This is why it is worth getting help from someone who has experience in this area.

    It's worth getting this figured out, because if I had commissioned someone experienced in the subject, I would have had 3 wires laid everywhere long ago. Take a look at this forum, there are often as many people as many ideas for seemingly standard installations.

    CYRUS2 wrote:
    In terms of also "intelligent" systems. How will the manufacturer not provide service in 20 years time ?
    .
    Well, what would you do?
    Because I set up my own server, take the open source code from github and design myself a raspberry that will be independent of clouds or other American or Chinese inventions. And for the mobile I will choose a dedicated application for the time being, but at any time having the sources I can put up my own. The connections of each dongle under the smart home will also be designed in such a way that they can simply be removed from the installation or replaced with something new.
    Don't assume your expertise on every topic
  • #18 18366806
    CYRUS2
    Level 43  
    naxed wrote:
    Well, what would you do ?
    I don't really fancy a lot of intelligence.
    On a day-to-day basis - people buy appliances, they don't think they need to have a company service.
    They think it's enough to replace a "resistor" to repair it.
    naxed wrote:
    Because I'm setting up my own server, taking the open source code from github and designing a raspberry for myself.
    Basic question - will anyone other than a colleague fix this ?
    naxed wrote:
    .
    Don't assume your expertise in every topic
    This should therefore be typical.
    Who will want to "touch " this installation ?
    (additional question for how much money ?)

    If, as a result of a fault, the mains voltage rises significantly, can the smart home devices withstand this.
    What will be the damage ?

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around designing an optimal cable and conduit installation for a detached house, focusing on safety and future expandability. The author seeks advice on wiring configurations, particularly for stair switches and lighting circuits, while minimizing the use of connectors like WAGO. Participants emphasize the importance of including protective conductors (PE) and suggest using multi-conductor cables for flexibility. Concerns about the adequacy of the proposed wiring and the potential for future disruptions in smart home systems are also raised. The conversation highlights the need for careful planning and consideration of safety regulations in electrical installations.
Summary generated by the language model.
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