Connection of light points to the Control Panel: manual control and via CA

Hello

I would like to run 6 light points in a detached house directly from the light source to the CA. Before the installation of the CA, the lighting will work as traditional, i.e. the lights will be switched on from key switches. Once the CA has been installed, everything will be rewired to the INT- IORS. The lighting operation will be controlled via the CA and traditionally via momentary switches. The switches will be connected via YTDY 2x0.5 mm directly from the alarm switchboard. This solution will hopefully work correctly. My question relates to the situation of lobby lighting, where I would like to use two staircase switches. With the traditional layout there is no problem with the wiring. On the other hand, how to solve the operation after connecting the power in the hallway to INT-IORS, i.e. after plugging the lighting into the CA. I would still like to be able to operate the light point in the hallway via two switches traditionally, i.e. manually, and via the CA. How to wire these two switches so that everything works correctly.

masgar wrote:

from the light source to the alarm switchgear.

.
I don't know if it's a slip of the tongue, but I'll write for the sake of formality that I recommend leading to the electrical switchboard first, however.

masgar wrote:

My question relates to the situation of the hallway lighting, where I would like to use two stair switches.

I for one have an internal allergy to stair switches, especially when there is to be a double switch at two points, you get a lottery arrangement of 4 switches. I would however recommend a bistable relay and installing bell switches straight away.

Added after 36 [seconds]: .

masgar wrote:

will be YTDY 2x0.5

.
Here I would personally lay a UTP twisted pair, if not two.

"I don't know if it's a slip of the tongue, but I'll write for the sake of formality that I recommend, however, leading first to the electrical switchboard."

This is not a problem, but I don't see the justification. The supply on a separate circuit will be from the electrical switchboard to the alarm switchboard. In the alarm one everything will be spliced.

"I have an internal allergy to stair switches, especially if there is to be a double switch at two points, you get a lottery arrangement of 4 switches. However, I would recommend a bistable relay and installing bell switches straight away."

When wired to the CA the setting will be as a bistable switch. What I am referring to is how to wire the two switches in the hall so that they can operate manually when connected to the CA.

"This is where I would personally lay a UTP twisted pair, if not two."
From the switch to the CA I need two wires for control, but there is no problem that there would be more. Why twisted pair and not YTDY. I don't see why not.

masgar wrote:

This is not a problem, but I don't see the justification

.
You write that you'll have INT IORS, so I don't know why you'd push YDY wires and the expander itself into an alarm enclosure, but that's your business. Incidentally, have you considered using a regular INT-O expander and adding external relays to the stands? Easier maintenance.

masgar wrote:

What I mean is how to wire the two switches in the lobby so that they can operate manually when connected to the CA.

1. now that's me, I don't see a reason for such operation, except in case of module failure.
2. no feedback to the control panel as to whether the circuit is switched on - unless you use positive contact switching relays or auxiliary contacts.
3. not sure if I understand correctly, but you want to connect the lighting on the stair switches to the CA? See point 2.
4) I would quickly solve this by using a bistable relay for control independent of the CA + something like auxiliary contacts for this relay, which would send me feedback to the control panel as to whether a circuit is switched on. Then any manipulation through the CA would be in line with the manual circuit. In the control panel you set that output signalling by the input to which these auxiliary contacts are plugged in and you have a visualisation that also coincides.

masgar wrote:

Why twisted pair and not YTDY. I don't see why.

.
1. good installation practice says that if you need two conductors, lay 4 or 8.
2. 2-core YTDY is really easy to sew - it's good to have a spare.
3. UTP is a more versatile cable - maybe one day you will connect some bus modules requiring such communication or at least a double switch....

Give more specifics - preferably draw a diagram - for yourself - and think about how it would work.
Do you have an existing installation or are you making a new one?
If you want to install actuators - write down which ones and where they will be mounted.
This can be solved in at least a few ways - depending on the existing state.
For example, bell switches can be connected in parallel and connected to the control panel input - the "classic" way of controlling. You can also leave the "standard" ones and check the status changes.
It is worth taking a look at the ROPAM website - there is a ready-made design - you can compare it with your concept and choose the best solution.

I will try to explain it on two connections. The light in the room and the light in the hall. I run 3x1.5 mm^ from the light source (room and hall) via a switch to the distribution board. In the distribution board, I connect this to the mains circuit. I switch the lighting on with a switch in the room and two stair switches in the hall. I install the CA Integra 64 and the INT-IORS. I rewire the phase wires to the INT-IORS achieving control in the automation. The control is via YTDY in the bell switch (2 x minimum). In CA the inputs are as no alarm action while the corresponding outputs are as BI switch output type triggered by the corresponding input. By triggering the bell switch I turn the lighting on and off again after a period of time. I have a manual configuration and via CA (different lighting automation configurations). I hope this is ok. I just have a problem with the two stair lights in the hall. How to keep the manual operation when connected to the CA. I don't want to go into complicated construction (modules, relays). I would like a simple solution. The house is new and before the electrical installation. I can still virtually everything in the wiring.

All bell switches and connected in parallel - you plug them into the control panel (or expander) input and you can control the output just like any other light. Using any of them will short-circuit the control panel input.
Or you connect each to a different control unit input (or make a parallel connection in the control unit).
This is one of many solutions - it is better to consider the whole house - you may find that other solutions are better.

masgar wrote:

I just have a problem with these two staircases in the hall. How to keep manual operation when connected to CA

.
Please write how you want this to work?
You are using an installation with staircase switches, ok. What is the control panel supposed to do on this circuit and when? What is its function in this circuit? Just don't write control. Is it supposed to turn things off? Switch on? Both? On the keypad and the app, do you want the current status of this circuit: indication of on or off with automatic updates when the status changes?

sk1977 wrote:

Please describe how this is supposed to work?

.
All the light points operate classically via switches. Six of them are connected to the CA. They operate with bell buttons also classically. However, they can also operate in lighting automation, e.g. when an alarm is triggered by a motion detector, the lights in six rooms of the house are switched on. They switch on and off in a timed cycle when the occupants are not present, simulating their presence, etc.

masgar wrote:

All the bell switches and connected in parallel - you plug them into the input of the control panel (or expander) and you can control the output just like the other lights. Using any one will short out the control panel input.

.
I could be wrong, but when I connect the two switches in parallel I will get a short circuit using either one, but will not get a disconnect using the other. Could you explain this to me more clearly. I can't make it out. Maybe some kind of graphic of how the connection is made.

masgar wrote:

I could be wrong, but if I connect two switches in parallel I get a short circuit using either one, but I don't get a disconnect using the other

.
Bell switches are monostable - if you let go they no longer short circuit. If you press it, the whole line will be short-circuited when you press it, and there will be a break when you release it.

Welcome,

masgar wrote:

when the alarm is breached with a motion sensor, the lights in six rooms of the house come on.

But how? An intruder enters the house, the motion sensor detects him, the alarm goes off, and you turn on the lights in the house?

Greetings.

sk1977 wrote:

bell switches are monostable - if you let go they no longer short circuit. When you press it, the whole line is short-circuited, when you release it there is a break.

.
To the best of my knowledge this is how they work connected classically. If they are properly configured in the CA they can operate bistable. Then one pulse turns the lighting on and to turn it off you have to change state and repeat the action.

bhtom wrote:

.

But how? An intruder enters the house, the motion sensor detects him, the alarm goes off, and you turn on the light in the house for him?

Well, yes. That kind of action is closer to me than reacting in the dark. I am not fanatical about such an attitude, but no one has yet provided me with sufficient justification for a different response.

I don't understand anything anymore. You're mixing up concepts left and right, dabbling in these stair switches.

I asked you to explain to me what this hall switch is all about and you write about bell switches and stair switches.

Study what they mean:
- staircase switch
- monostable switch
- bell switch
- bi-stable switch (relay)

adwlodar wrote:

I asked you to explain to me what the hall is all about and you write once about bell-ringers, once about stair-ringers.

I don't know how I can explain it more simply, but I'll try.
First period of lighting operation - no CA (maybe in a month, maybe in six months) all the key switches work classically (manually). The hall has two stair switches. On, off as in a normal house.
The second period is about installing and connecting the SSWIN system. This is when I change the key switches in selected locations to bell switches, configuring them accordingly with the CA system. The question is how do I proceed with the staircase switches (what to replace them with) so that I retain the ability to operate manually and via CA. The hall is served by two points and here I have a problem. I would like to apply remote control via CA to six points. Two lobbies are included in these six.

masgar wrote:

maintain the ability to operate manually and via CA

- then specify.
Manually, i.e. how?
Via the control unit (the control unit reacts to the pressing of a key and changes the light on/off + controls the light e.g. based on the alarm)? This is how I understood the operation.
Is it supposed to continue to operate based on the switches - independently - in the event of a failure/disconnection of the CA etc?

sk1977 wrote:

Whether, in the event of a failure/disconnection, the CA etc. is to continue to operate on the basis of connectors - independently?

Of course not. Once the CA is fitted, everything is to operate based on it. I am only to retain the possibility of operations manually, but everything is plugged into the SSWIN system. In the event of a failure, I have no way of controlling any of these points. Then, either repair the SSWIN or go back to the version without CA.

I'm not sure I've understood correctly.
When controlling via CA, you replace the stair switches with ordinary bell switches and connect both in parallel to one input programmed as a bistable switch.
A bistable switch works in such a way that the first press of the button will switch the circuit on and the second press will switch it off.
If the bell switches are connected in parallel to one input, no matter which one you click on, you will obtain a change of state in the controlled circuit.

masgar wrote:

After the CA is fitted, everything is supposed to work based on it

- then you have the answer in post #7.

And if you would like it to work without the switchboard too - in place of one staircase switch you mount a NO/NC bistable (e.g. BIS-402) and connect bell control + control from the switchboard to it. Or you replace one of the switches with a cross switch and add a NO/NC bistable relay (standard scheme for 2xeast + cross switch), the relay works as one staircase.
In both cases you would need to check the light status and relay to the control panel. From the control panel you give a pulse to the input of the bistable relay changing its state.

alster1 wrote:

When controlling via CA, you replace the stair switches with ordinary bell switches and connect both in parallel to one input programmed as a bistable switch.
A bistable switch works in such a way that the first press of the button will switch the circuit on and the second press will switch it off.
If the bell switches are connected in parallel to one input, no matter which one you click on, you will get a change of state in the controlled circuit.

Sorry, but I'm getting a bit confused myself and missed this simple solution. Yes, this way I will achieve what I intended.

sk1977 wrote:

then you have the answer in post #7.

Thanks mate. You guided me to this solution, but somehow it seemed too simple at first. The use of a relay was also something I considered.

Closing. Problem solved. Thank you colleagues.
Regards.