[Solved] Home automation - your expectations, device functions and software features

As moderator of the Home Automation section, I observe your dilemmas about system selection, struggles with hardware, attempts to get features working in software, expectations of compatibility, etc. As it stands, this section of the forum looks rather weak. We have few topics and even fewer meaningfully completed topics and it is probably time for a change.

Basic questions .
- Is home automation for you?
- What features do you expect from devices implementing home automation?
- What features should such devices and software have?
- Can we develop some common approaches to home automation?

Is lowering and raising the roller blinds or switching on the water pump for the garden at the same time every day an automation or not?
Is switching on the light in the hallway or the toilet via a movement sensor "intelligence" or not?
Is the possibility of reading the temperature in the living room via a phone on the other side of the world (after sending the data via American or Chinese servers) part of a smart home?
Should only the locks and the (garage) door have encrypted transmission or is it better if every element of the system works this way; even over cable?
Are radio systems or wired systems better?
How do you envisage your control system for such a home: a dedicated control panel on the wall in the hall, or a telephone, or perhaps a computer or television?

These are just a few simple questions, and there are many more.... The more things we include in this discussion, the easier it will be for us (the facilitators) to take the lead and look for solutions that can help in the future. It also gives us a chance to encourage potential partners.

What's next? .
Describe your expectations. We are waiting until the end of January and in February we will try to determine the direction of development for this section.

There would probably be as many answers to these questions as there are respondents - although for the moment there is no crowd .
Based on my experience - personal and completed projects in this area - it all depends on the needs, situation, requirements of the clients.
Generally speaking, for me home automation is a more complex system than controlling roller blinds or irrigation, it is a whole and most often consists of many elements/systems which can influence and cooperate with each other - and how coherently they will work and to what extent depends on whether it is already "intelligence" or still only the automation of simple activities (such as the aforementioned roller blinds or watering, and the routine behaviour of the installation).
If we make the operation of exemplary roller shutters dependent on many factors - e.g. the state of light inside, light intensity and temperature or wind strength outside (e.g. closing them during hot weather, or closing them in the case of strong wind/rainfall when the window is open and the occupants are not present) + connection with the alarm system, movement/presence sensors - we are already beginning to talk about an "intelligent" house - monitoring the situation and reacting to it.
Control - this is mainly a question of functionality and preference. Something that impresses guests does not necessarily have to be user-friendly on a day-to-day basis. It is more important what is displayed on these panels - whether there is useful information for everyday life - it may be that the scene switch is used frequently and the touch panel becomes a dust collecting element after a few days.
For many, voice control can be useful - especially if combined with scenarios - e.g. the command "We are leaving" can switch off lights after a while (time to leave the house), certain appliances (e.g. audio, TV, induction hob, socket with iron on, etc. based on energy consumption, lower blinds in hot weather, etc.). - even if someone is in a hurry, they do not have to worry whether they have switched off the induction hob. This can also be done with a scene switch and here we come to the issue of comfort and safety as well as economy - that is, the "intelligence" of the house as well. Control from the outside is already practically standard - not everything can be programmed - e.g. early return.

Which systems are better? The right one for the customer and the budget. Wired solutions (especially with star installation) are expensive and can be difficult to implement in used rooms. Wireless - will not work everywhere - e.g. here where a lot of reinforced concrete can be a problem, but are relatively non-destructive when implemented in used rooms, are also easier to expand, and Zigbee-based devices are quite stable (with proper installation design), easy to service and much cheaper.

One more important - in my opinion - aspect. It is worth remembering that "tampering with electricity" by people without appropriate knowledge, tools and skills is dangerous both for the "tamper" and for other people. In addition, we have legal regulations which define what cannot be performed without a Qualification Certificate - the so-called SEP authorisations. This is also worth talking about - it may save someone's health or life. Especially if the installation of electrical equipment starts with "hold me a beer and hand me a screwdriver, no electrician is needed here, it's simple stuff, so what if the instructions are in Chinese, what difference does it make whether L or N, and that yellow-green..." .

Seemingly a few simple questions ... and one could go on for a long time .

Thank you! You have touched on a number of issues and there are many more to come.
This topic was set up for just such a purpose so that you can elaborate. .
Home automation is there to help us. The area is broad, but there are some patterns. The more voices there are, the easier it will be to define what we can do as a portal for those who are looking for the information they need. And it doesn't have to be at all about advising forums on how to plug in the next Chinese gadget and why colours matter.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with elektroda.pl cooperating with external entities. If it is beneficial for these entities, for the Fellows of the forum, and ultimately for the forum itself, then ok.

sk1977 wrote:

For many, voice control can be useful - especially if combined with scenarios - e.g. the command "We are leaving"

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Something like this can also be implemented based on BT or WiFi, by the way @Marek_Skalski started an interesting topic.
As for the "automation" itself - is mainly based on control of roller shutters, cooker, gates etc. based on the control panel as far as the clients it serves are concerned.
Lighting scene control - the biggest boom was 5-6 years ago and Fibaro, but the costs scared some people, by the way, it was so underdeveloped that you could go crazy - when adding a newly purchased Relay Switch, for example, it turned out that you had to update all the devices practically to continue communicating with each other.

Marek_Skalski wrote:

The more voices there are, the easier it will be to determine what we can do as a portal for those who are looking for the information they need. And it doesn't have to be at all about advising forums on how to plug in the next Chinese gadget and why colours matter.

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Here it would be good to separate e.g.Supla from typical Chinese inventions that work via the cloud.

Marek_Skalski wrote:

Personally, I see nothing wrong in cooperation of elektroda.pl with external entities. If it is beneficial for these entities, for Fellows of the forum, and ultimately for the forum itself, then ok.

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There are some people here with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to this, such as @sk1977 or Xury.

House with roller shutters with tilting slats, heat pump with 5 wells of 100m each, emergency pellet cooker in the garage building, touch controls in the rooms ( with temperature measurement and displays) Underfloor heating + cooling in the walls and ceiling, cooling/heating media distributors with central control ( you can swap the heating/cooling function, recuperation lighting controlled centrally and locally plus scenes, coupled with Interga,
all managed by a home server and centrally controlled from a tablet with visualisation of the entire house, of course controlled from a smartphone.
KNX system, one lamp ( purchased earlier by a customer at a trade fair for 25,000 zloty because it was nice) in the Dali system and to this an adapter to KNX for 2500 zloty.
To make it all work an installation with a phase of life ( the "fourth" phase, powered by a 4 kVA ups and on it collected the elements necessary for the operation of the house + kettle and of course the media centre ) and the whole pushed by a 3 f 24 kVA genset.
UFFF
House not large - about 300m², in the countryside, the cost of these inventions exceeded 1 million.
And I have already rescued a client as he slammed the keys inside.....
Greetings. J.

sosarek wrote:

There are some people here with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to this, such as @sk1977 or Xury.

- thanks and of course to each other !
Since many issues have been left this by way of addendum.
SmartHome is practically at the borderline of electrical, automation, security.
A lot of functionality can be done based on a control panel - this is where manufacturers seem to see room for development of systems - e.g. Ropam has published a sample home control project, and they are announcing a new control panel (in the spring they announced in the autumn) which was to go further in this direction. Integra probably won't be left behind either. So implementation on CA could be a category
Then we have, for example, KNX (this is rather a separate category due to costs), Fibaro or Grenton - dedicated systems for automation as comprehensive solutions
In both of the above categories, one can rather expect a substantive discussion from people with an idea of what they are doing.

And then there is the category of low-cost devices - one could say commonly available, usually easy to install/install also in existing installations - as referred to by Kol. Marek_Skalski Chinese gadgets and their operation. Here, we practically have two subcategories - use according to the manufacturers' assumptions - i.e. via the cloud and Home Assistant-type systems - allowing to bypass manufacturers' clouds and bring the operation of cheap devices closer to dedicated systems. Here the level of discussion may vary .

What is installed?
The basic set is control of light (with more light sources, scenes are very useful), roller blinds, heating/air conditioning/humidifiers, some sockets + motion/presence sensors, light, temperature, humidity + alarm system (often to be a completely separate and independent system). Intercom/videophone + gate control. Outdoor irrigation, lighting. From the "security" package, smoke/choke detectors, flooding detectors, electro-valves, etc.

Marek_Skalski wrote:

Personally, I see nothing wrong with cooperation between elektroda.pl and external entities. If it is beneficial for these entities, for colleagues from the forum, and finally for the forum itself, then ok.

- to such cooperation probably everyone has already got used to and there can be benefits for everyone - if it would be for example on the principle of advertising in exchange for valuable, factual texts, then I am for it.

Just bear in mind that my answers will be from a customer's point of view, not an engineer's, and I'll skip some to keep myself busy.

Marek_Skalski wrote:

- Is home automation for you?

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Remote control of appliances (even on/off type)

Marek_Skalski wrote:

- Can we develop some common approaches to home automation?

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Of course, but there would have to be a thick line separating the professional applications we offer customers from the hobby applications.

Marek_Skalski wrote:

Is lowering and raising the roller blinds or switching on the pump that feeds water to the garden at the same time every day already automation or not?

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Yes, it's always a nice touch.

Marek_Skalski wrote:

Is switching on the light in the hallway or the toilet via a movement sensor "intelligence" or not?

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no...

Marek_Skalski wrote:

Is the ability to read the temperature in the living room via a phone on the other side of the world (after sending the data via American or Chinese servers) an element of the smart home?

yes

Marek_Skalski wrote:

should only the locks and the (garage) gate have encrypted transmission or is it better when every element of the system works this way; even over cable?

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For the client: encrypted everything wireless, for yourself can be over wifi on basic security.

Marek_Skalski wrote:

Are radio systems or wired connected systems better?

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Mixed is best, IMO this is the only sensible direction for a manufacturer.

Marek_Skalski wrote:

How do you envision your control system for such a home: a dedicated control panel on the hall wall, or a phone, or perhaps a computer or TV?

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Panels are legitimate, but price is the determinant: if something looks like a tablet for £400, works like a tablet, and costs £3500 then even a rich customer will get knocked on the head. The main control remains the smartphone/tablet.

Deciding what to recommend is quite simple:
1) the profi/hobby divide
If profi then : preferably a Polish product, because I like to have the phone number for technical support at hand to talk to a competent technician and get a solution quickly. In addition, a fast warranty and after-warranty service. It is also important to be able to quickly (e.g. within months) implement improvements or new features.

If it is a hobby: this is a river subject, as it depends on the level of sophistication of the asker, the free time available and the desire to get to grips with a larger or smaller topic.

You have raised an important point - manufacturer support and service, which is what distinguishes professional from amateur systems. .
Maintaining the service or even the helpline/chat are costs that only make sense for a reasonable number of units sold. On the other hand, if the equipment is good, such a service is almost unnecessary, but necessary.
An amateur, designing something for himself or running 'something' found on the internet, will easily agree to compromise. A customer who invests a reasonable amount of money wants to have not only the equipment, but also technical support during operation, e.g. software updates and the possibility to easily expand the system or at least replace components.

What other suggestions do you have from the point of view of the customer, installer, manufacturer; amateur and professional?

Marek_Skalski wrote:

On the other hand, if the equipment is good, such a service is almost unnecessary, but necessary.

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Could you elaborate? I'd love to know which system is like that .
Still referring to profi solutions: it is even necessary to be able to create users with different rights: to the service by remote access, to share the system or to enter the flat for a certain period of time for different people (short-term rentals, hotels, etc.).
In my humble opinion, professional systems will take over more and more of the market.
Sooner or later, people come to the conclusion that time is the most valuable thing and I myself often look for ready-made solutions even having the possibility to create a device based on AVR or ESP.
Amateur systems exist only for hobbyists, because if something doesn't work, I am to blame, but even if I want to install something for my family or friends, I prefer to avoid situations such as: it doesn't work, or this one has a touch screen and colour and works on a mobile phone, etc... etc. etc.

GanzConrad wrote:

Could you elaborate? I'd love to know which system is like that

Installed by a good installer taking on the role of official service . The customer calls the installer in the first instance and this is usually sufficient.

Amateur solutions are a large part of the market and a lot of interesting things can be done with them - manufacturers try to make them easy to install and configure - also in existing installations without modification.
This applies not only to 'Chinese toys' but also to larger manufacturers such as Philips' Hue and Tradfri.

GanzConrad wrote:

In my humble opinion, professional systems will take over more and more of the market.

- it remains to be seen - in PL the price is a very important element for most customers, and in the case of professional systems it is much higher (at least to start with, after time it may turn out to be the opposite). The situation is also different for new buildings (where there is influence on the design and execution of the installation) and different for existing buildings in use and even different for renovated buildings.

GanzConrad wrote:

Of course, but a thick line should be drawn between the professional applications we offer customers and the hobby applications.

- I agree - I even suggested a division - more because of the manner or level of discussion. They are from many points of view different systems, different philosophies.

Thank you for your contribution to the topic. We have had a fantastic development of this discussion.
The amateurs have an approach that is too amateurish, the professionals have an approach that is too professional, and there is no room here for the mediocre.
With so much interest, it is definitely better for me to focus on other topics and let this section continue as it is.