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Erbit wrote:

Also, of course, I agree, and I am far from "having everything that marketers salivate over".

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You might say. The average target of such a fibaro? Well, I have my doubts.

Erbit wrote:

It is obvious that our great-grandmothers were afraid of electricity. Building automation is a kind of gadget, which in my case, however, brings minor benefits, and not all benefits are converted through the economics of their use (bicycle vs car, remote control...).

And this is where two concepts come into play:
- opportunity cost. It is possible to discuss whether/what capital (time/money/attention) could be spent in an alternative, potentially; „better”, more efficient, indefinitely.
- The law of diminishing returns. It matters that I do my laundry „in 40 minutes of which I have to actively work at it for 5, while my great-grandmother would have spent 1.5h doing it. But it doesn&#8217t make much difference to the 15 minutes a year saved by manually switching the living room light on/off, so the argument entitled. „our grandmothers lived without electricity and were fine” is crippled. It is used almost exclusively to suggest to the discussant that he has a backward perception of reality.

I use the "smart home" system for several functions that make life easier :

- starting the CO at a given time and turning it off at a given time as well. This makes sense in winter when we are at work most of the day. Of course, the start-up can also happen remotely or when the temperature is lowered.
- monitoring of house temperatures + status of motion detectors
- switching on e.g. the radio at 5:50 a.m. to wake up
- switching off several devices with a single button on the wall - in the study
- control of RGB mood lighting in the bedroom
- automatic switching on/off of lights on the stairs when motion is detected.

I've had the Fibaro system in my home for over three years and I'm happy with it, although I know I use it maybe 10 per cent of the time....

But you don't need a smart home to operate most of these functions. The temperature in the house will be maintained by an ordinary Euroster, boiler controllers or thermostatic valves in radiators; the temperature in the basement - why do I need to know?; motion detectors will be taken care of by the alarm, which will also take care of "turning the radio on at 5.50"; games with lights will be taken care of by the much cheaper Exta Free or Exta Life from Zamel. As for the blinking lights in the bedroom, I won't comment on that, because when it blinks red in front of my eyes while I'm at work, I don't know if it's an installation failure, detection of unauthorised entry to my cottage, or me driving on reserve .

PS. Weren't you the one who used to work at Fibaro?

Yes, I used to work with Fibaro, I have the system because there was a promotion .
Of course it can all be done on foot, but I have a Smart Home.

Well, and one more thing: the vulnerability of the system to external attacks. In The X-Files, in the seventh episode of the eleventh series, Scully's smart home was attacked by a diner bot when she and Mulder refused to post a comment to her on social media. Mulder was at least being watched by a swarm of glowing microdrones, while Scully was not allowed to use the house at all. And it wasn't just the heating or the roaring audio set .

Well Fellow. This thread is not over the superiority of a flip-flop sculpture over a finished integral system.
If someone wants to, they'll install Fibaro, if they pity the pesos, they'll buy a few different gadgets and have a few different apps etc etc etc.
We live in a free country, no one is forcing anyone to do anything.

In the abstract - you can drive a multipla or a mustang to church on Sunday - Doopa will be delivered yes ? But since I have a mustang, I drive a mustang.
I'm hoping for a swift end to this pointless dispute.

Friend...
Neighbour...
I don't think we understand each other.
I'm not preventing anyone from having a system if it makes someone feel valued, or adds a few points to their advantage over their neighbour. Let him have it. But I don't know how to define the compulsion to duplicate the functionality of devices with system components. Is there really a need to know the exact temperature in each room to the nearest half degree and to be able to adjust it also every half degree over some short period of time? A simple electronic controller can set a daily temperature profile and can also maintain a minimum temperature when we are not there. Do a lot of people check the temperature of the house they are currently in every quarter of an hour? And you buy the controllers together with the boiler.
I don't want to buy a system for one application hoping to come up with some other function for it in a while. I also don't want to shoot a cannon at a fly - using the system to light a couple of lights from my smartphone (not even to mention the fact that my arse is stuck to the sofa).... please convince me that the idea of a "smart home" is, I don't know.... beneficial?, helpful?, intended?....

Quote:

Abstract - you can drive a multiples to church on Sunday, or a mustang - Doopa will be delivered yes ? But since I have a mustang, I drive a mustang.

A terribly misplaced comparison. You drive a mustang by yourself, inflicting chic on the parish, followed by your wife with the kids in the dust clouds of your multipla? Of course, on the whole you can .

juan cabrillo wrote:

convince me please that the idea of a "smart home" is, I don't know.... beneficial?, helpful?

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Before the system was installed, my record gas bill was £1,800 with a hook in the winter. I haven't had more than £900 for this utility for two years, even with the harsh winter we've had recently.

Of course, you can handle the same thing with a controller for a hundred, but that controller won't do the RGB mood in my bedroom .

P.S. The parable of the mustang you didn't understand, tough.

I guess I'm old now.
Lately when I think about such things I always take into account when I'll get something back.
For example, I buy a thermostatic radiator head for 100zl which, among other things, can turn the radiator off when it detects an open window.
Savings? 5zł (optimistically) per year, which means return in 20 years, and I'm not sorry, after two years the warranty will end and the device will refuse to work. Let's say it doesn't, I put in new batteries once a year and the saving of PLN 5 a year goes down the drain.

I read that someone pays £1,800 for gas and after fitting a home automation system pays £900 please .... by lowering the temperature when I go to work or when I'm not at home I can save 50% please .... unless, for example, I go to work in England and return in 0.5 years.

I love such things and if someone gave me such a thing for free I would walk around it all the time and enjoy it like a child.

And no one has mentioned the cool possibility of checking (and possibly switching off) if, for example, I have switched off the iron, soldering iron, etc. as I rush to work. .
Also a nice way to check if I've switched off the lights (I forget too), and the timer mercilessly charges.
I am the forgetful one.
Of course, this can be solved more cheaply, but it's not about cost rather this was meant to be.
In my case, it also works well to switch the heating on remotely before arriving at the flat.
Because I use electric heaters and the house is old and not insulated, and I come back at different times.

Erbit wrote:

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It will detect the opening of a window because it says so in the advertisement but the reality is slightly different.


Live mate in a dugout, no heating, no hot water, no cold water, no plumbing, no electricity, no gas.... it will certainly pay for itself very quickly.

It just so happens that I have such a head and the reality is that it turns on, I checked.

As for the second sentence I will not comment on the waste of time ...

One thing puzzles me about this subject. The prices of these devices are not cheap. Has anyone ever calculated whether the potential energy savings outweigh the cost of the equipment, maintenance, inspection and service? I am referring to the so-called 'smart home'.

Old topic I think worth reading https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic2050795.html

I looked into this topic and found complete nonsense right at the start:

fidme wrote:

Dear Sir, installers recommend a wired solution because it's extra money for them.
After all, it's obvious! cable + location = more money. Why recommend to an uninformed customer a system on which they will make less money?

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It is the unaware investors (or those made aware by sales magicians) who, at the construction stage, instead of laying the cables, are persuaded to go for wireless solutions, which will always be susceptible to interference and their operation is a compromise between efficiency and battery saving.
From the point of view of the installer, his earnings and comfort, a wireless solution is ideal. There is no need to wipe around building sites, keep an eye on cabling, repair it if it is damaged during construction work, etc. It can be said that a wireless system is pure profit .

I have had a similar system in my home for 7 years, which includes components such as:
- devices with z-wave protocol - dozens of modules
- integration with satellite alarm via ethernet
- integration of a recuperator via the Zehnder rsr232 oem protocol
- Viessmann heat pump integration via LON protocol
- WAGO PLC for controlling the floor (I had one)

And now, one by one, what the system does:
- opens and closes all the roller blinds when the sun rises or sets - very convenient, especially when there are 5 windows in the living room and you have to go to each one and close them.
- Turning the recuperation system off at 6 p.m. when the neighbours are heating water in their old central heating boilers and turning it back on at 10 p.m. when the air is already clear. The recuperation controller itself does not have this option.
- Increasing the recuperation gear depending on the humidity level in the bathrooms - useful after a bath. reku controller does not have this, control from the system.
- Controlling the temperature in each room independently - this can be done in an ordinary controller, I have it done in a PLC.
- Integration with the heat pump - for the time being only for information purposes, but it came in very handy to record temperatures when the three-way valve failed.
- Control of garden lighting when the sun rises or sets - useful.
- Reading the status from the alarm detectors and controlling the lighting in the corridors and stairs - I didn't need to pull separate circuits to control the lights from the control panel, I added the z-wave module and that was it.
- Controlling the terrace pergola or screen roller blind on the terrace is convenient when needed while relaxing - my wife is happy.
- Recording of energy consumption by the boiler room and calculation of annual costs automatically.
- and many other minor conveniences + recording of all measurements in a historical database

Why all this? Because I wanted to have it to "stay up to date". It was also a kind of hobby. I'm over it now. I got bored with the subject. But I must admit that the z-wave protocol was a good choice, because I kept adding toys as ideas popped into my head. I didn't have to do a lot of designing and anticipating. Only the integration of devices in the boiler room was a little more challenging. I had to write the communication protocol for the recuperator myself.

After these 7 years, I find that I have unfortunately got used to using it all, or rather not-using it, because it runs itself in the background of life at home without involving anyone.
When I started writing this post, I wanted to agree with the previous speakers that it is possible to live without such a system and that you actually don't need it that much. And with that I agree. However, once one gets used to it, it's hard to give it up. It's like driving a car in automatic and wanting to buy one in manual. People who drive a manual but have never driven an automatic don't know what's going on. I've driven cars in manual myself and I used to deny that I didn't need one. Until ... well, now I have 2 cars in automatic.

It makes sense to install a smart-home system if you do things globally and not piecemeal, i.e. with temperatures regulated separately in all rooms, light control for ALL the lights in the house, etc. But then - as some of the previous speakers have already written - it's a game for the wealthy, i.e. a niche market.
But then - as several of the previous speakers have already written - it is a game for the wealthy, i.e. a niche. Simply put, the components of a Z-Wave-based system are too expensive for the ordinary bread-eater (even wanting to be up-to-date) or enthusiast. The previous speaker wrote about dozens of bits - lightly counting that's a few thousand in components alone, without start-up and integration costs. So writing about 46% of the public willing to buy such a system is a slight stretching of reality - once you get to know the prices, 46 becomes 6% (at best).

kotbury wrote:

So writing about 46% of the public being willing to pay for such a system is a slight stretching of reality - once you know the prices, 46 will make 6% (at best).

Yes, we are too poor as a society for such systems to be treated as a normal part of home installations.

kotbury wrote:

The previous speaker wrote about a couple of dozen bits - slightly reckoning that's a couple of grand in components alone, without the cost of commissioning and integration.

Yes, the cost of the z-wave modules alone is high, in my case it was 7-8 thousand PLN, the whole system costs several thousand without integration costs, because I did it myself as a hobby. It can probably be done more cheaply, e.g. based on an alarm control panel, but then you have to anticipate everything at the stage of laying the installation in the house. There is always a trade-off, the convenience of installing and developing the system against a low price. But on the other hand, there are also systems that are based on the bus, e.g. KnX/EiB, whose module prices are higher than z-wave, but the freedom to develop the system does not have.

tomiok wrote:

And no one has mentioned the cool ability to check (and possibly turn off) if, for example, I've turned off the iron, soldering iron, etc. as I rush to work. .
Also a nice way to check if I've switched off the lights (I forget too), and the counter mercilessly charges.
I'm the forgetful one.

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I also get tired of the "German" but:
- the light is currently LEDs I don't know how many times I would have to leave everything on for a few hours a day for even a sonoff to pay off let alone something more fancy.
- iron ? After all, it will switch itself off, the soldering iron likewise.... If you have another one, it is cheaper to change the iron than to add and install a metered socket.
- And then there's heating control. I'll tell you what, the savings are negligible if you reduce the temperature for a few hours because it drops by 1-2°C if the house is uninsulated. If you don't have a radiator with the right output, it's very difficult to catch up in an hour, and a more powerful radiator means higher costs and the stench of dust because it heats to the max. Doing something like this makes sense if you're going away for a few days a year, but then you're not interested in saving 50-200 PLN on heating.
What's cool about home intelligence:
a) monitoring of media and parameters in the rooms (temp, humidity)
b) automation of lighting in communications
c) optimisation of equipment operation (e.g. pool heating)
d) scenes
e) possibility of remote reception of couriers
f) control of ventilation, etc.
I have use for many things, is it essential rather not. Any savings on utilities will eat up the system itself about 20-50W non-stop + maintenance. It's just a convenience and a certain comfort that I can check the "status" of the house from anywhere in the world as long as there is a net.

Erbit wrote:

(...)Of course you can come up with "too small or too big radiators", "uninsulated house" and other things as counter-arguments but what do they have to do with automation itself? Will the lack of automation suddenly make the radiators adequate or the house better insulated? After all, before and after fitting automation the conditions (radiator size/insulation) are the same so I don't understand the arguments being put forward as being against fitting automation.

If by this time someone hasn't coped with setting up the heating controller properly - they won't cope with the smart either; both devices use the intelligence of the 'setter', only transferred to their settings, but if they have set up the controller well - why do you need another when this one does the job.
I would remind some that from buying a new appliance - the buyer doesn't get any wiser (it certainly loses money from the account).

Fibaro has already started calling (a while ago) private numbers, like usurers with chwilówki or photovoltaics, with its slogan: "you won't pay your bills".

I think such a system is well suited for people with disabilities. It will certainly help in everyday life. For example, when such a person forgets to switch off the light in the garage and it's ready for bed or whatever.

@Erbit
I can already see how you control the bathroom that you only use in the evening.... and if you get sick you don't use the warm bath ? If your nose is pouring and you can barely see out of your eyes you'll definitely be switching zones. It doesn't matter what kind of house it is, but in most it will take more than a few hours to change the temperature by 1*C, plus the walls will cool down so the perceptible temperature will be lower.

A bigger challenge is to control the heating depending on the conditions outside, e.g. in transitional periods, as there is a difference between a well-lit flat when it is 10*C and raining and 10*C and full April sun.
Zone control gives you comfort when you use one room in several ways, e.g. as a living room and bedroom. In terms of finances, it doesn't make much sense. It is better to maintain a constant supply of the minimum power to heat a given room than to bump up the temperature with a 2kW radiator where a few hundred watts per room is usually sufficient. I understand that the issue is mega-complex and should be approached individually, however, the overall yields are small.

The customer should be presented with the possibilities and the amounts involved. Because sometimes one service visit puts an end to the legitimacy of the investment in terms of pseudo-savings.
This should certainly be done in such a way that, in the event of a breakdown, life is relatively normal.

konderla117 wrote:

I think such a system is well suited for people with disabilities. It will certainly help in everyday life. When, for example, such a person forgets to switch off the light in the garage and it is prepared for sleeping or whatever.

They cling to this light and what will it change ? Let him have 20W for the garage light (LED) and forget to switch it off once a week it is still cheaper than 2-3W continuously + the cost of a device with "intelligence". What's different is how the garage lights up the bedroom windows ....
If you have area lighting in the hundreds of watts and need external control ok makes sense, but in a flat ? Where it is a dozen or so watts for the whole room it is not financially viable. Wifi, RS or other zigbee is not an option and you have no light in your flat? If you are on your own, you can manage, but I can already see the mother of a small child putting the lighting controller on its feet in the middle of the night by uploading the "lastest" version of the new software from "New folder 2", who has never versioned software in this way, let him cast the first stone.

Erbit wrote:

(...) You know the difference between us ? You are a theoretician and you know as much as your practice .
I am a practitioner.

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The difference is that I am writing about SmartHome from an article, you are describing your own construction the whole topic.
Now do you see the difference? Or do you still not see.
The SmartHome is good for those who are building or are planning a major renovation, adding this device to an existing one is stupidity in its purest form.
This is what I am writing about, which you "seem" not to notice.

In addition, the push to get people to buy it has begun.