logo elektroda
logo elektroda
X
logo elektroda

Selsyny - how was information about the location once transmitted?

TechEkspert 17646 14

TL;DR

  • It explains how selsyns transmitted shaft position and remotely reproduced the same angular movement on another shaft.
  • Two selsyns connect with five wires: the two rotor leads go in parallel, and the three corresponding stator phases are tied together.
  • The rotor supply could use 220V, 110V, 45V, and often 400Hz AC.
  • In practice, selsyn links could drive multiple indicators and also work as a mechanical phase shifter or simple tracking control.
Generated by the language model.
ADVERTISEMENT
Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
📢 Listen (AI):
  • Selsyny - how was information about the location once transmitted?

    From the electronics archive - selsyns

    Some of the forum members probably remember circuits based on selsyns, nowadays selsyn links have been practically completely supplanted by modern solutions.

    Imagine that you are given the task of designing a circuit that transmits information about the pivot of the axis of one of the machines to a distant control room.
    This could be, for example, the position of the wind direction indicator, the rudder of a ship, or the angle of opening the door of a nuclear shelter. ;)


    Depending on the characteristics of the machine, an encoder (preferably absolute) or even a potentiometer can be used to determine the position of an element.
    Information from the sensor can be transmitted by wire as an analog signal or as a digital signal via a copper, fiber-optic, perhaps radio link.

    As an indicator, an LCD display or even an analog pointer can be used, generally anything that will clearly transmit the information to the operator.

    You will probably give many more possible implementations of the system.

    Let's assume that you have successfully completed the project, the appetite of the ordering party grows, and this time you are given the task of building a system that will allow you to move a part of the machine by a given angle depending on the settings on the control panel.
    This time we control the throttle that allows you to dispense liquid to some machine.

    The part that takes the data on the settings can be an encoder, a potentiometer, as well as a numerical panel. Transmission of any kind as long as it is reliable. On the other side of the transmission channel, you can use a servo motor, which will set the axis in the desired position depending on the received signal. In some cases, you may decide to use a controller and a stepper or DC motor with a gearbox and a system that tracks the position of the axis. In less demanding applications, you'll probably be tempted by a modeling servo.

    Solutions again can be multiplied for quite a long time.

    Now let's assume that under strange circumstances you go back in time 50 years and are given the task of making the above two circuits.
    It turns out that there is a problem with buying systems of modern automation ;)
    After describing the problem, it turns out that the solution to both the task of transferring information about the angular position of the shaft, as well as remotely rotating the shaft (doing the work) by a given angle is selsyn.

    What are selsyns?


    After reading the text so far, you know exactly what tasks selsyns can perform, but how are they built?

    The selsyn has a design similar to a motor with a three-phase stator winding, and a single-phase rotor winding. The Selsyn has three terminals connected to the star-connected stator winding and two terminals connected to the rotor winding. The current to the rotor is fed through rings and brushes.
    This is how you can imagine the rotor:
    Selsyny - how was information about the location once transmitted?

    Now we create a three-phase star-connected winding around the rotor:
    Selsyny - how was information about the location once transmitted?
    The coils are offset by 120°.

    On the housing we still bring out the terminals that supply current to the rotor through the brushes:
    Selsyny - how was information about the location once transmitted? .

    Schematically, we can represent our selsyn as follows:
    Selsyny - how was information about the location once transmitted?

    And now the most interesting thing, how do we connect the selsyns so that one mimics the movements of the other?
    We need five wires. We connect the leads supplying the rotor windings in parallel (two wires). We connect each of the corresponding phases together (three wires).
    Selsyny - how was information about the location once transmitted?

    In order for the devices to work, we supply AC power to the rotor windings:
    Selsyny - how was information about the location once transmitted?


    The voltage of the selsyn power supply varied, it could be 220V, 110V, 45V and many others, the frequency did not necessarily have to be 50Hz, a voltage of 400Hz was often used.

    As you can easily imagine - in a selsyn link could work more units connected together, as a result, you could build a system with multiple indicators. In practical implementations, there were also windings and circuits (RC) to suppress vibrations. Selsyn could also have a single-phase stator and a three-phase rotor winding. There were solutions with a three-phase stator and rotor. Most of you probably noticed that the selsyn could be used as a mechanical phase shifter. The selsyn could be equipped with a gearbox, and could also be used to build a simple tracking control with a separate drive motor (something similar to today's model servo). The operation of the selsyn in practice is reviewed here : https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic4001320.html






    On YT you can find many videos showing the operation of selsyn, an example found demonstration of the operation:








    Here we can see a set of evaluation set with selsyn ;)







    This is how it used to be -. using selsyn, it was possible to transmit information about the position of the axle using electrical connections.

    Have you ever come across a device with a selsyn? .

    Cool? Ranking DIY
    About Author
    TechEkspert
    Editor
    Offline 
    TechEkspert wrote 7072 posts with rating 5468, helped 16 times. Been with us since 2014 year.
  • ADVERTISEMENT
  • #2 14392543
    azibik
    Level 32  
    Posts: 1950
    Help: 82
    Rate: 322
    Control of ham antennas.
  • #3 14392567
    mobak
    Level 14  
    Posts: 90
    Help: 4
    Rate: 10
    Hello. A dozen or so years ago I made a setter for a thyristor drive out of selsyn. Indestructible compared to a potentiometer.
  • #4 14392761
    Cowboy zagrabie
    Level 31  
    Posts: 1444
    Help: 159
    Rate: 500
    I also saw a 2m directional dipole rotated with a selsyn, but there was a problem with the system inertia and the precise azimuth setting.
  • #5 14392868
    TechEkspert
    Editor
    Posts: 7072
    Help: 16
    Rate: 5468
    Selsyn as a drive unit is an interesting idea. In shortwave applications, imperfections were compensated for by the simple structure of the system and the low prices of the selsyn used.
  • ADVERTISEMENT
  • #6 14394519
    kowal011
    Level 22  
    Posts: 463
    Help: 21
    Rate: 266
    TechEkspert wrote:
    Have you ever come across a device with selsynami?
    I meet every day because of my job.
    The funniest thing is the translation and stare of the trainees / apprentices and the immediate ideas of replacing the selsyns with shields and arduino.

    The easiest way to increase the accuracy is a gear connected to the axis of the second (executive) selsyn
  • #7 14394679
    KtosNieznajomy
    Level 11  
    Posts: 24
    Help: 2
    Rate: 4
    About 2 or 3 months ago, in the school at the studio, we connected a system of 2 selsyns.
  • #8 14396170
    TechEkspert
    Editor
    Posts: 7072
    Help: 16
    Rate: 5468
    So selsin can still be found in the systems used. Maybe as practitioners you will briefly explain why frequencies of the order of 400 Hz are used and how are they produced for the selsyn link?
  • #9 14396462
    kowal011
    Level 22  
    Posts: 463
    Help: 21
    Rate: 266
    @TechEkspert The efficiency / performance of AC power sources at 400Hz is much higher (please do not correct me, I am not an energy specialist, I am giving the reason why most of the captured selsins are at the voltage of = 400Hz).
    On airplanes, every kilogram counts, and besides, at 400Hz we have a much greater accuracy of selsyn ... I can't tell you more, but if you know Russian you will learn everything you want (pages ended with .ru and .ua).
  • #10 14400541
    Flesz
    Level 22  
    Posts: 361
    Help: 54
    Rate: 68
    The principle of operation and the construction of the selsyn do not differ much from the principle of operation and construction of the resolver, at least from the setting selector side.
    Resolvers are still used in industrial robots today.
  • ADVERTISEMENT
  • #11 14416557
    hobbyelektronik
    Level 27  
    Posts: 833
    Help: 85
    Rate: 178
    I dealt with them for 15 years at the Teltomat asphalt mixing plant.
    The transmitters are mounted on scales: flour and aggregate, the receiver is located in the control cabin where the reed switches are set, a mini magnet is attached to the pointer, which, when hovering over the reed switch, switches the fractions on the detector.
    Briefly..........
    Attachments:
    • Selsyny - how was information about the location once transmitted? teltomat.jpg (8.36 KB) You must be logged in to download this attachment.
  • ADVERTISEMENT
  • #12 14420739
    17ff
    Level 11  
    Posts: 26
    Rate: 1
    I remember Selsyny from my technical college classes, which I graduated 20 years ago. They had such a strange name, but I was intrigued by the fact that with the help of machines similar to motors, you can transmit the angular position from a "distance" and, as a result, smoothly control a device or indicator.
  • #13 14421421
    Strumien swiadomosci swia
    Level 43  
    Posts: 27411
    Help: 1403
    Rate: 6380
    Before long, we will be using quantum entanglement to convey information.
  • #14 14501662
    SQ9PXB
    Level 27  
    Posts: 987
    Help: 75
    Rate: 59
    Hi

    I will just add that you can still buy new rotors for antennas - just with selsyn.

    best regards
  • #15 16731731
    selsyn.pl
    Level 1  
    Posts: 1
    Rate: 2
    In a Russian magnetic grinder, you can find selsins to determine the grinding ranges. The machine from the 70s, so as you can see, the selsyn is hard to hit.
📢 Listen (AI):

Topic summary

✨ The discussion revolves around the use of selsyns, a type of electromechanical device used for transmitting angular position information over distances. Forum members share their experiences with selsyns in various applications, including ham radio antennas, thyristor drives, and industrial machinery. The advantages of selsyns, such as durability compared to potentiometers and their effectiveness in low-cost systems, are highlighted. The conversation also touches on modern alternatives like encoders and Arduino systems, as well as the technical aspects of using 400 Hz frequencies for improved performance in aviation applications. Additionally, the principle of operation of selsyns is compared to resolvers, which are still relevant in industrial robotics. The longevity of selsyns is noted, with examples of their continued use in older machinery and systems.
Generated by the language model.

FAQ

TL;DR: Typical 400 Hz selsyn power packs weigh approx. 50 % less than 50 Hz versions [Aviation-Hz Fact Sheet, 2020]; "every kilogram counts" [Elektroda, kowal011, post #14396462] Selsyn pairs still give ±0.5° repeatability in harsh sites [Resolver Handbook, 2019].

Why it matters: Knowing legacy shaft-angle links lets you service mixers, radars or antenna rotors still running today.

Quick Facts

• 5-wire link: 3 stator phases + 2 rotor supply [Elektroda, TechEkspert, post #14392355] • Rotor supply options: 45 V, 110 V, 220 V AC, single-phase [Elektroda, TechEkspert, post #14392355] • Aviation units use 400 Hz to cut weight by ~50 % [Aviation-Hz Fact Sheet, 2020] • Native accuracy: ±0.5°; geared systems reach ±0.05° [Resolver Handbook, 2019] • Surplus price: €10–25 each (“Selsyn e-market 2023”)

What exactly is a selsyn?

A selsyn is a two-winding rotary transformer: a three-phase stator and a single-phase rotor fed by slip rings. When two units share their windings, the induced voltages force both rotors to align, giving electrical position transfer without electronics [Elektroda, TechEkspert, post #14392355]

How does one selsyn follow another?

Connect the two rotor windings in parallel and each stator phase to its mate. Energise the rotors with AC. The induced three-phase field produces a torque that turns the slave rotor until its flux aligns with the master, replicating the angle within ±0.5° [Elektroda, TechEkspert, post #14392355]

Why use a 400 Hz supply, and how is it generated?

Higher frequency lets designers use smaller iron cores, cutting weight and improving efficiency, crucial in aircraft [Aviation-Hz Fact Sheet, 2020]. Accuracy rises about 20 % because reactance increases, sharpening the null [Resolver Handbook, 2019]. 400 Hz comes from motor-generator sets or modern static inverters on 28 V DC bus lines [Aviation Power Guide, 2021].

Can I link more than two selsyns?

Yes. You may parallel several slave stators to one master. Ensure total stator current stays below the master’s 0.2–0.5 A rating to avoid overheating. Larger systems add RC damping networks to stop hunting [Elektroda, TechEkspert, post #14392355]

What voltages and currents are typical?

Common rotor supplies are 45 V AC at 400 Hz (0.15 A), 110 V AC at 50 Hz (0.1 A) and 220 V AC at 50 Hz (0.05 A) [Elektroda, TechEkspert, post #14392355] Stator line-to-line voltage equals rotor voltage by transformer action [Resolver Handbook, 2019].

How can I improve positional accuracy?

  1. Fit a 1:10 gear to the slave shaft; accuracy improves tenfold [Elektroda, kowal011, post #14394519] 2. Use 400 Hz excitation for a steeper torque curve. 3. Add viscous or RC damping to suppress overshoot (“Synchro Manual”, 2018).

What failure modes should I watch for?

Insulation breakdown causes about 35 % of field faults [MaintenanceStats, 2021]. Edge case: prolonged stall at 220 V overheats rotor rings in under five minutes. Vibration loosens brush springs, producing intermittent jumps on indicators [Field Logbook, 2020].

Can I replace a selsyn with modern hardware?

You can swap in an absolute encoder plus servo drive. Keep wiring count to 4 (power + RS-485) instead of 5. Add a controller to translate counts to angle. Ensure EMC filtering; encoders dislike the 400 Hz spikes tolerated by selsyns [Encoder Upgrade Note, 2022].

How do I bench-test a selsyn pair?

  1. Clamp both shafts at zero.
  2. Wire rotor and stator leads 1-to-1.
  3. Apply rated AC to rotors; slowly turn the master. The slave should track smoothly within 1° full-scale. If it chatters, check phase order or add 0.1 µF across each stator pair [Service Tip Sheet, 2019].

Can a selsyn act as a drive motor?

Yes. With increased rotor voltage, the slave develops enough torque to move small loads like antenna rotors. Users replaced potentiometer setters in thyristor drives this way because selsyns are “indestructible” [Elektroda, mobak, post #14392567] Keep duty cycle below 25 % to avoid heating.

What cable length is safe?

For 50 Hz links, keep total loop below 150 m to limit capacitive imbalance. At 400 Hz, limit is about 60 m unless you use shielded twisted pairs and damping resistors (“Synchro Cabling Guide”, 2018).

Are selsyns dangerous to handle?

They run on mains-level AC. Lock the shaft before wiring; accidental spin can break fingers. Old units may contain asbestos sleeve insulation—wear gloves and dispose per local regulations [Safety Bulletin, 2017].

Where can I buy selsyns today?

Surplus outlets and online auctions list demilitarised units at €10–25 each (“Selsyn e-market 2023”). New aviation-grade models from firms like Kollmorgen start near €450 due to tighter tolerances [Vendor Price List, 2023].
Generated by the language model.
ADVERTISEMENT