Replacing a smart installation in a high rise block of flats - which cables?

Welcome,

i'd like to warn you straight away that I'm an IT specialist, I don't know much about electrics. I bought a flat in a block of flats in a big plate, I am replacing the old aluminium installation. I want the new installation to be ready for an intelligent solution, probably with an Integra (I don't actually need an alarm, but it's probably the cheapest way out, microprocessors are too unreliable and a PLC would probably be more expensive than an Integra 128). All cables to the switchboard, no junction boxes.

I would like all the switches to be bell switches (often double), going with 3x1.5mm YDYp cable (double x2 cable), I know there is an unnecessary wire going from earth, but better to have a spare. In the same way, for the lighting goes 3x1.5mm YDYp (for the weaker LED "bulb(s)" 1 cable and for the stronger ones the other). And here's the first conundrum, normally signal cables are used for smart bell switches, rather skinnier, supply 12/24V and still run away from 230V cables. Do they have to be thin or can I be YDYp, routed together with the cables for lights and sockets (450/700 insulation all cables)?

I don't know whether to try the Integra right away or only after I've learnt how to control it, and to do things the "old fashioned way" for now, i.e. bistable switches (as I have quite a few) and connecting the cables in the switchboard as if it were a junction box, for wago or whatever is allowed.

The other topic is how to control the radiators, what cable to run, how many wires and what at the end, some sort of smart thermostat? Is there any point in controlling it centrally or just installing one on batteries?

Miedzix wrote:

I've bought a flat in a block of flats in a big slab, I'm replacing the old aluminium installation. I want the new installation to be ready for a smart solution, probably with an Integra (I don't actually need an alarm, but it's probably the cheapest way out, microprocessors are too unreliable and a PLC would probably be more expensive than an Integra 128). All cables to the switchboard, no junction boxes.

How do you imagine running that much cable in a large slab? Cutting it is not allowed, there is no plaster. On the surface?

retrofood wrote:

How do you imagine running so many wires in a large slab? You can't cut it, there's no plaster. On the surface?

It won't be that much, it'll go in the ceiling or floor I know you can't disturb the concrete, so I'll use what's there and probably put some plasterboard on those few walls to level out and hide the cables.
Now back to my questions.

I lay my own twisted-pair cable to the switches and 3 or 4 wires of at least 1 mm2 to the consumers from the distribution board
Radiators are also twisted-pair.
Generally I wire the sockets with 2.5 mm2 and connect them in boxes. As many as possible are connected with a twisted pair. This gives you the option of building in a small relay and turning such a socket into a controllable one. For example, for lamps in the living room to be switched from a wall switch or completely remotely.

I terminate the twisted-pair cables with RJ-45 plugs. The company has prepared special PCBs for me on which I can mount RJ sockets and ARK connectors. They are tiny and fit in the boxes without any problem. on the switchgear side, the PCBs are similar except that they are slightly larger and there are 8 sockets on one.
It is good to use a link for this

What emergency microprocessors are you writing about?

And do you put the twisted pair together with the rest of the cables or do you make a gap of a few cm?
It seems to me that it is a bit unnecessary this twisted cable to the switches, 3 wires 1.5mm2, 1 phase and 2 go on to 2 lamps and it is the old way, I can even do the old bulbs and chandelier, retro style, or these 2 wires to some plate with intelligence, sensors, etc and it will do IB, am I right?

I was referring to the Raspberry Pi, which can crash or the sd card crashes the system. Although it is a lot more efficient than an integra, I don't know anymore.

I arrange the twisted pair together with the cables. I use my own controllers in which the I/O is galvanically separated from the logic. This is similar to the PLC with the difference that in my case the voltage is lower - 12V. A twisted pair and such voltage does not cause any problems when laid together with 230VAC cables. On the same twisted pair I am also going to connect DS18B20 sensors. I don't know yet if they will work. So far I have connected them via various cables and never had any problems with transmission.
The RPi I have has been working continuously for several months. I have no problems with it. It runs LightTPD (because it's better than Apache) and 2 Python scripts: one to communicate with Arduino mega via USB and the other to read temperature from my other controller via RS485 communication.

https://www.facebook.com/DomInteligentny500Pln/ - there's a bit of a pattern to this, the author was describing in which episode that his RPi just crashed, after six months. That's too often for me, as I'm not the DIY type.
For radiators, sensors etc twisted pair ok, but for connectors I still don't see the point, can you explain it to me? I guess it's just to hide some sensors, PCBs in them, I prefer to have as much as possible in the switchboard, easy and quick access.
And for radiators, what electronic thermostats or low power consumption solenoid valves do you recommend?

I don't understand your misunderstanding. Twisted pair is cheap and offers as many as 8 conductors. what other cable will cost similarly? Besides, what do you see the problem in? In the fact that you have a lot more cable than you need now? Is that such a problem? As you start playing around you will get to a point where the cabling (or rather lack of it) will not allow you to develop the system further. I have a plan to put quite a lot of additional functionality in the switch: temperature, IR, LEDs to show status etc.... Of course, I won't get it all up and running straight away. At the moment I'm focusing on the cables - so that they won't be a limitation in the future.

PS
I know the topic from the link.
It is impossible to create an IB for £500.

If I were to look for a cheaper one, I'd probably
But what I was thinking of was this redundancy, and so these YDYP to each point from the distribution board would already take up some space, and here we still have to run a twisted pair next to it. Unless you want to run a twisted-pair cable to each point and distribute the current in the old way, in boxes?
I'm not planning IR, leds in the switches, only smartphone control via the net, but I think I'll be tempted to use motion and dusk sensors in one (of the two) lamp circuits. To be precise, if the switch is off, the sensors don't work, they don't draw any current, if it's on, they work, if it's dark and someone is walking around, they light up the weaker circuit, as long as it's possible to move around the room. A second circuit with no logic and a stronger light, e.g. for reading or simply when it is too dark.
I know that such a system is not possible for 500zł, but for 2k it should be possible.