Inexpensive system to start with - Seemple/Homematic/Fibaro and others

Question

Hello I'm considering a low-cost smart home system to start with for a detached house and was interested in the Seemple system, on Z-wave technology. The house is already standing, no installation for a smart home, so only a wireless system comes into play. To begin with, I need: -control of the...

Anonymous · Answer

. I am not familiar with the capabilities of the indicated system, but for me two things were key in my choice - the possibility of working without the cloud thanks to which I gain independence and greater reliability of the system - actors and control panel from one manufacturer As much as the second condition could be debated for a long time, I think that the first condition is important, because how would you like to function in a cold or dark house when the internet is down? I use HomeMatic, not a very popular system in Poland despite the fact that it is from our western neighbours. With HomeMatic (in the version with a central control unit), I am not dependent on the manufacturer's cloud and thanks to direct connections between actors , key tasks can be carried out even without the involvement of the central control unit (e.g. in the event of its failure).

Nix · Answer

I don't know the capabilities ( at the moment ) of any system.... I think a Z-wave based system does not work without the cloud, but z-wave is a popular standard I see and someone could confirm this.

And what capabilities does HomeMatic have at a glance? And which control unit -CCU2 or perhaps CCU3 ?
For example, does it have the option of controlling an additional valve actuator? Because, as you know, it controls thermostatic heads.

Anonymous · Answer

. I think it works. It is rather dependent on the manufacturer and the manufacturer adapts to trends and the latest ones have a push on the cloud. . Yes, it's already a popular standard. ... All in all, it is the same as any other. . It depends on what your expectations are. The heating alone will quietly work on the CCU2. I had about 60 actuators on the CCU2 and it worked. . It has. However, let me start with the disadvantages that are significant from my point of view. - no Polish online community (a huge German community instead) - few components are available from a Polish representative, most in German shops or on the secondary market. Of the significant advantages - it is the only system I know of that has the ability to communicate directly between actors. This means that, for example, when you flick a switch, it radio transmits the action to the actuator, bypassing the CCU. The advantages of this are numerous and it is difficult to list them all now. - works at a radio frequency of 868 MHz (the same with Z-Wave) - two-way communication (acknowledgement of command receipt) [edit] On this occasion I would love to hear the opinion of someone who has about 140 (or more) actors on Z-Wave. I am referring to the clogging of radio communication and how this affects the functioning of the whole system.

sosarek · Answer

I'll put it this way - although Fibaro works on Z-Wave it has a closed protocol and doesn't work with other devices, as far as cameras are concerned only a few models used to work, as far as integration with Satel and DSC alarm system is concerned.
I haven't moved in a year so maybe something has changed but I don't suspect too much.

Nix · Answer

And what do you mean by others ? Does Fibaro work ONLY with Fibaro devices, it does not work with Z-wave devices from other manufacturers ? Or is it a lottery whether it works with a particular device from another manufacturer or not ?

Anonymous · Answer

. I'm not going to answer these questions directly, and what I'm going to write doesn't apply only to Fibaro, but to all systems (also the proprietary ones, where all components are from one manufacturer). Well, in order for an actor to be served by a control panel or another actor this control panel or another actor must understand what they are going to discuss with it. The Z-Wave standard does not specify what a parameter means but only defines how to transmit it. This means that if the manufacturer of an actuator makes a firmware update and adds new parameters / capabilities to it, then in order for it to be supported others must know what these parameters mean. In other words - with different manufacturers it is difficult to extract all the data from an actuator unless you have a Domoticz where you are able to define new parameters at your fingertips. This is another reason why I have not decided on a single manufacturer, because what does it matter to me that the device, after an update, will receive new possibilities if the control panel will not be able to handle it and you will have to wait for an update of the control panel, which is not known when it will happen.

Nix · Answer

. It has the possibility ... what do you mean possibility ? It just always communicates directly or does the user decide whether to communicate or not ? And could you write a little more about this system ? For example, what is the prognosis for software/system updates? Supposedly, the CCU3 works, for example, with 'normal' thermostatic heads of the old/old type and with the newer 'IP' type...? But is it possible to have several such heads and several newer ones in one system ?

Anonymous · Answer

. Generally it is difficult to write something because I don't know what you are interested in, but with a specific question I can try to address it. So, the system comes in two versions, Homematic and HomeMatic IP. The Homematic version is an older version, less developed but still supported and still with software updates. . This means that, for example (using Fibaro terminology), you can create a scene that is implemented directly between devices (bypassing the control panel). This has a lot of advantages but at the same time has limitations that only allow you to execute basic scenes. Extended scenes must go through the CCU. For example, I can combine such devices into a heating group (create a scene): - window sensor - wall thermostat - several radiator heads The whole group will function by communicating with each other, which means that when I open a window, the sensor will transmit this information to the whole group (bypassing the control panel) and each of the heads will perform the scene related to it. What is more, any manual change of parameters (e.g. raising the temperature) directly on one of the actuators will cause synchronisation of this parameter on the other elements of the group. Of course, the window opening signal will also be sent to the CCU, but only as a change of window status and this will have no effect on the scene discussed earlier. Further - you can program such a scene directly between, for example, a switch and a light, and here again without the involvement of the CCU. For some time now, the CCU (CCU2/CCU3) has supported both versions (i.e. both HomeMatic and HomeMatic IP) and they can exist in one control panel so both can be used but.... It is not recommended to use HomeMatic and HomeMatic IP in the same room due to the lack of direct scenes between HM and HM IP. This means that if you have, for example, an HM IP window sensor and to this an HM head, you will not be able to create a heating group as I described above. However, it is possible to place HM and HM IP in one room and to operate such a scene via the CCU and not as a direct scene. However, I do not recommend this unless there is no other option.

Nix · Answer

This I will ask specifically about camera operation.
Do you have one connected? One with rotation in 2 planes?

And a second question like this: The Homematic brand is also Eq-3.... will the system handle e.g. relay modules ( e.g. such a module of 12 digital inputs and 12 relay outputs) ?

Anonymous · Answer

. I have seen some solutions but not interested in them. I just don't see the point of such an integration. I have a separate program to operate the recorder and it is so powerful that I don't think the EQ-3 would ever want to play with it. Using the program from the recorder I have a lot of possibilities that I wouldn't have in HomeMatic. I only have a camera hooked up to the HoemMatic for the basics (cyclic images) and from what I remember there are difficulties hooking up an RTSP stream but I could be wrong, I can look but as I've already written - it will take time. EQ-3 is the manufacturer of the Homematic brand. There are quite a few such devices. Please ask for a specific catalogue number or model. Homematic (also IP) has a wired interface. You will need to buy a RS485 gateway and then you will have cable operation. It is likely that the module you are asking about comes in 2 variants: radio and cable. If it is a module with the Homematic brand then yes - it will handle it. Other brands of the EQ-3 manufacturer are not compatible with the HomeMatic brand but as I wrote a moment ago - provide the part number / model then it will be possible to check.

Nix · Answer

It is about such a module As for the camera - can you give a link to an example of a ( ordinary ) camera supported by the system? Does such a camera have an SD input and can it record something if it detects e.g. movement?

Anonymous · Answer

This is Homematic meaning it will work. However, it is a version with communication over RS485. This requires a gateway, which you connect to the LAN (and configure in the control panel) and a 24V DC power supply. The HM gateway has the symbol HMW-LGW-O-DR-GS-EU, and the RS bus termination resistor HMW-Sys-Tm-DR would be useful. . Why do you need a camera in such a system? Motion detection in simple cameras is non-functional, while in expensive ones it is non-functional . Generally, motion detection is a problem and I wouldn't set your sights on doing it that way because you'll quickly find that it doesn't work the way you want it to.

Nix · Answer

Why do I need a camera... the system is intended to be versatile and multifunctional and is meant to control everything in the house

When I am away, I want to see what is going on at home, and if the camera could detect movement (in an empty house, for example), it would be able to send an alert, etc etc etc.

I do not want to have several control systems at the same time, I would expect just the integration of many functions in one system ...

So what is the real situation with camera operation - is it supported or not?

Anonymous · Answer

There is -> but I don't know much more about it. I know there are other options for other cameras but as I wrote I have no experience with this because I have never been interested in it. Added after 9 [minutes]: . . This is a serious mistake. What do you think will happen when you have everything in one and just happen to have the one and only one 'fail'? No home automation system will ever be an alarm system and an alarm system will never be an automation system. The same applies to gate opening, intercom or cameras. I have integrations in place, but for me each system is a separate, independent system, and HM only binds it together and supervises it, but does not make it dependent on each other.

Nix · Answer

. I don't consider it a bug, much less a serious one )))) It won't be everything, but a few things as I wrote above. But back to the topic- what in general are the Homematic devices -central units and their capabilities ( in brief) ? I see that popular on the secondary market are HmiIP-HAP PBXs, which, although similar to CCU3 PBXs in terms of their external appearance, are completely different (and much cheaper) devices... what are these Homematic IP Acces Points worth? Do these Acces Points sit between the CCU2 and CCU3 in terms of capabilities? And are they from the UK market? This is what the individual units look like

xury · Answer

I, on the other hand, have decided that I am going to make my own home automation system at low cost. At the same time, I want it to be stable and for everything to continue to function smoothly in the event of a breakdown.
Therefore, I decided to combine Integra 128, Domoticz, Node-Red, Influxdb, Grafana, Tasman, Espeasy, Espurna, Arduino, OpenWrt, RaspberryPI, Sonoff, Google Home. Cheap ESP8266 and ESP32 modules, or cheap Chinese Sonoffs, but reprogrammed with alternative software, are usually used as actuators.
I try to make it so that even if the server with Domoticz goes down, the system still functions. The system is in constant production, but it works well.
Currently I have, control of lighting, heating, gates, gate,TV, etc. using switches, smartphones, voice, and recently I have been working on using gestures using OpenCV.
Measurements of temperature, pressure, humidity. PM measurement will also be coming soon.
Autonomous decisions made automatically, that is so much more 'smart' than those pseudo systems for which 'smart' means being able to be controlled by a smartphone and some sort of schedule. Behind this is Domoticz, Node-Red, Lua. So far it has cost me something a little over £1,500, where the most expensive components are the miniPC and the RPi3.
The most expensive part has been the time spent on it, but as it's also what I like to do it doesn't count.

Nix · Answer

@xury - I envy you, but it's unthinkable for me, if only because of the notorious lack of time.... I have to have something ready, which can be efficiently installed, possibly easily extended, and should work .

Anonymous · Answer

Yeah, sure Besides, it's fun - that's a fact Added after 3 [minutes]: . I don't call this a PBX (nor does the manufacturer). The AP (access point) only enables: - connection of two elements between each other (i.e. direct connections) - configuration of actuators (e.g. temperatures, schedules in thermostatic heads) - connection to the cloud End of possibilities .

Nix · Answer

I have done a bit of reading about the different systems and their UNreliability.... now I understand what you meant
assuming, as a priority, that the whole system should preferably be from one manufacturer....
Can you confirm( because I read that you have experience) that the reliability of Homematic is really recommendable ?

Because I have read, for example, about the capriciousness of the operation of fibaro systems, e.g. that the radiator thermostat suddenly opens to the maximum, or that the smart socket has to be taken out of the contact and put back in (several times a day at intervals anyway), or that the smart lighting switch "hangs up".... If it's supposed to work like this, I thank you....

In summary- what is the actual, empirical, not theoretical reliability of the system's operation ( I understand you now have a CCU#?) vs.
other systems?

Second question- the actuator for the homematic system valve.... I found one, quite cheap:
https://www.reichelt.com/gb/pl/nap-281-d-230-...-p253457.html?&trstct=lsbght_sldr::228195

But the problem is that it's a normally ( voltage free) closed valve, and I need the same one, but normally open

Anonymous · Answer

. This is a relative term and I have no comparison with other systems. I can only describe my problems. Generally radio systems are asking for trouble (and wired systems are asking for other trouble). On a slightly more serious note. The radio path is susceptible to interference from obstacles and littering the radio with other signals (not necessarily HomeMatic signals). This is why you should check the radio ranges when building the system (when assembling the components). If they are optimal then OK but if there is a thread of suspicion then.... in the case of HM, additional gates must be rescued. In the case of HMIP, routing is provided using network-powered actors as the next routing points. In my several years of using HM I have had literally a few, isolated instances of the system disobeying me. I may not describe them all but.... They were few in number, but covered a large area of failure. Minor incidents are unlikely to occur. 1) An incident a month ago (the only one for several years) was characterised by the CCU suddenly losing all the HMIP slots. That is, it had them in the configuration but was unable to communicate with them. After several tests, I came to the conclusion that either there was a problem with the radio module responsible for the HMIP (because the HM worked fine) or it was some kind of software problem. After several, unsuccessful attempts to remove and re-train one of the sockets, I left the issue and then found that several sockets had started to work on their own. So I left without moving anything. After a day all the sockets were visible and working again. I don't know what the cause was but it coincided with one of the sockets being moved to another room in a completely different part of the building. Maybe the system lost the routing route and it took a while before it expanded. 2) I had two instances where the system stopped communicating with the window sensor. There was no way to get it to work. Only removal and re-training had an effect. 3) There are situations where the Control Panel reports that an actor has not received a command. This happens several times a day with the HM-OU-LED16. I bought it used, maybe it has such a factory accident, maybe it's just defective but that the transmission goes to it quite often so these several times a day don't bother me because it works only in information mode and not in execution mode. I have a similar case with the front beacon but this one does not occur as often. There, because I want to be sure that the light is on/off, I use a system of variables and verify that the element has carried out the command. If not, I repeat the command. The solution works without any problems. Similar cases (lack of confirmation) sometimes happen with other elements and it is difficult for me to determine their frequency but let's say it would be once every few days. 4) I have had one case described as Babbling Idiot. In simple terms, it involves the continual sending of commands through a suspended circuit which increases radio traffic causing blocking of other radio modules. This mainly happens when for some reason (e.g. low battery) the actuator hangs up. I was affected by this because I was tempted to build a DIV actor based on the Askin++ library i.e. it was not the original HM actor. Case in point There was one, it never happened again and the device that failed at the time still works today without any problems. This case exposes the weak point of all radio systems. So much for 140 actors and several years of system operation. . Be kind enough to point out the number of users. The scale of Fibaro / Homematic users in Poland is incomparable. . I'm sure you can find one. Out of curiosity - what do you want to use this valve for?

Nix · Answer

I need this valve to control the distribution of the water flow in the central heating between the two circuits (the small and the large circuit, where the large circuit would heat at weekends and other trips with power limited only to the antifreeze temperature, and the small circuit constantly).

The installation of the two circuits is not yet done, I am waiting for the expert.

Anonymous · Answer

With electronic heads, I don't see the slightest point in doing such a circuit. What do you think the circulation will be when only one is open and all the others closed ? [edit] Do you have / intend to have underfloor heating? What do you fuel it with?

Nix · Answer

I am making a second ( small) circuit because I am simply attaching a part of the house previously heated in another way, not in connection with saving or with the planned automation. . I do not have underfloor heating at all and will not. I fire with a gas boiler single-function gas boiler, without water storage tank, Termet Ecocondens silver 20KW.

Anonymous · Answer

. I still don't see the point of putting a valve there for that extra circuit. Simply lower the required temperature to some minimum where you need it and the heads will do it themselves without the involvement of an additional valve. . I have already written. You will get this functionality on the heads and an additional valve is not needed. I too have rooms that I do not always use (e.g. the guest room). In winter I keep it at 16 degrees but I might as well keep it at 5 degrees (anti-freeze).

Nix · Answer

Yes, I know I could stop at just the heads, without the valve, but
I plan to put the valve on the "main" i.e. large circuit, not the small circuit.

https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic3624222.html#18231517
Here is my thread on the valve issue

The thing is, for this season I don't think I'll have enough money for 8pcs ( plus extra for small circuit) heads + smart system, so I'll probably end up with 1pc, max 2pcs heads, which I'll add to the future.
smart, so I'll probably end up with 1pc, max 2pc heads, which I'll top up for next season....

Anonymous · Answer

. Now I understand and it makes sense as long as you use the valve at all because once all the heads are in place you won't need to use it. If you are planning to buy heads for next season and the plan will be HM then I would suggest waiting until spring. That's when second-hand prices drop until the next heating season. In the summer I used to buy second-hand HM heads (not HMIP) for £30-50 each, now they go up to £100. Back to AP / CCU3. As long as you decide on such a device -> then perhaps the AP is enough for you. Unfortunately, I have not found this device on the aftermarket. You need it to control the boiler (switch it on/off). If you use this solution or similar -> then you will need a CCU2/CCU3.

Nix · Answer

I think I will decide on the Homematic system (and it will probably be a cheap version of the AP control unit, mainly because there is a simple program to operate/configure it and my system will not be very extensive), so I have additional questions:
-what is the difference ( practically ) between the heads - HmIP-eTRV-B, and HMIP-eTRV-2 ?
The latter is more expensive, but in general all, all Hm "IP" type components will work in this system with AP ?

When you wrote about the price of the heads-usages, did you mean the well-known in PL auction portal ( and usually auctions) ?

-Wouldn't such an AP type control panel allow "freely" controlling a 1-channel relay/switch which could serve as an on/off controller for the central heating furnace ?
Is it necessary to look for a "double" control unit such as the one linked above?

Anonymous · Answer

I think I will decide on the Homematic system, ... Not so fast! What about the camera ? . You could always buy a CCU2 and transfer the devices from the AP to the CCU. . Yes, I was writing about Allegro but I was writing about HM heads. HMIPs have always been more expensive although even those during the summer were cheaper than now. . Yes. . I know you've been given a barrage of information but it seems to me that you don't understand what I've written and I've written clearly and very much: - HMIP-HAP is not a switchboard - HMIP-HAP only has the ability to configure devices and pair them with each other - HMIP-HAP does not have the ability to create scenes. So the answer to this question . is NO, because there is no such functionality. Such functionality would have to be provided by the equipment and I guess it would be possible from room thermostats set to heating mode but testing this function in cooling mode I find that it works poorly. Perhaps this could be solved using HMIP-HAP and HMIP-WHS2 but these are virtually unavailable on the aftermarket besides I haven't had them in my hands so I don't know if this would work. . It is not a switchboard but such a relay but the doubts with it I described a sentence above. Anyway, next week one like this will arrive to me and as long as it is in working order I can test some scenarios on it.

Nix · Answer

Well the camera I can get over possibly (read - install a regular IP, outside the system) because the original costs baaaaavery much.... Yes, a lot of information You're right, you wrote quite explicitly about this above, apparently in the sentence that APs aren't even considered PBXs - well you were right, but after reading some of the conrad instructions I decided that maybe it could be done after all.... That is, it is the case that the AP is (simplistically) just an advanced programmer, yes, it supposedly controls the actors, but only through a pre-planned schedule, so in real time you can't even give it any, even the simplest, simplest, single command, let alone create scenes.... And in conrad they write differently (these instructions are probably written by secretaries, or salespeople, humanists, not engineers, or even people with a technical education at the level of vocational school - and I do not mean to offend anyone here ))) The question of naming a PBX vs an AP is apparently a minor issue, but the Polish conrad calls an AP a PBX, which is effectively misleading to a fresh, unfamiliar potential buyer. In addition (and perhaps above all), the Polish conrad manual contains so many generalities and vague, non-specific, imprecise and misleading data that your head hurts .... For example, conrad writes: - Homematic IP - the next generation of the smart home. - this suggests that it's a development of older smart home systems, yet the system from AP shouldn't be called a smart home at all, as for me it's an automated programmable controller for heating and a few extras with remote programming. - The AP connects your smartphone via the Homematic IP cloud to all Homematic IP devices and sends configuration data and app control commands to all Homematic IP devices. With Homematic IP, you can simply adapt your air conditioning solution to your personal needs anywhere, anytime. -Also a misleading description, because what about the fact that the system connects your smartphone to all devices, if you can no longer control them? But there is also an interesting fact in the aforementioned AP manual from conrad-according to the description In the app, tap the room and then the recharge symbol or ... to activate the recharge function / turbo mode is more appropriate here. If this is the case, in this case it is a direct command issue, so in simple terms it is however the execution of a simple scene ?

Inexpensive system to start with - Seemple/Homematic/Fibaro and others

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