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Soviet Agat computer - is it a failed copy of the Apple II?

andreyatakum 4437 24
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  • In one of the topics on our forum, not at all about computers, more about automobiles, a question was asked about Soviet hardware. At the time it was about the Agat, which many people thought was a clone of the American Apple II. Unfortunately, when I lived in the Soviet Union, I didn't have the opportunity to interact with this equipment, as it went into schools when I was past high school graduation. I later entered university in Poland. From there I returned to a completely different country - to independent Russia, when the Agat had become obsolete and other machines were popular (I had the Vektor-06C, Apogej, Junior, Poisk).

    Modern Agat-9 computer with a screen displaying a Rubik's Cube.
    .
    Contemporary Agat-9 motherboard developed by enthusiasts of this computer. Photo: Grigory Gaevyy.


    However, the subject of the Agat has sparked interest in our forum and I decided to look into its history of creation and other details. Over the course of a few days, I gathered information and even contacted one of the early users and enthusiasts of this equipment. Vladimir, for that is his name, told me interesting things and gave me some sources based on which this material was prepared.

    The creation of the Soviet Agat computer
    Outside the former USSR, the Agat is well-known thanks to its publication in a magazine popular even in Poland: "Byte". The article appeared in November 1984 under the title: "AGAT: A Soviet Apple II Computer - The Russians first microcomputer is a bad copy of the Apple". The author was Leo D. Bores, an American who had visited the Fyodorov Eye Microsurgery Complex in Moscow. I have translated this material into Polish. But I will publish it later.

    It is interesting that, despite the high-profile title apparently given by the magazine's editors, the author gave a quite positive assessment of this strange equipment from the point of view of a Western professional.
    According to Wladimir, the American was dealing with the original version of the computer, which seriously differed from the serial one and even more so from the next developmental ones.

    Despite speculation to the contrary, the Agat was not a failed clone of the Apple II or the Bulgarian Prawec. Vladimir explains that it was not intended to duplicate the aforementioned hardware at all. Initially, the management of the computer development organisation in the USSR could not make up their minds, choosing between devices with Intel or DEC architecture. In the end, they got their hands on 10 Apple II computers. These provided a model of sorts, but at the same time they were radically redesigned. The solutions used in the original helped to reduce production costs, because there was fierce competition in the areas where the whole thing was manufactured. In the Soviet Union, no one cared, because the Agat, firstly, was not intended to be sold on the free market, and secondly, there would be no one to compete with. In this country, no one cared much about price. Therefore, and for reasons described a little below, the Soviet version of the serial machine had some advantages. Among them:

    1. Flexible and multi-page displey controller, with true colours and no attribute conflicts;
    2. Full-featured Character and colour generator for text modes;
    3. Successful segmented memory architecture;
    4. Fast disk controller and advanced disk subsystem.

    The purpose of the Agat computer and the unusual way in which its production was financed
    The history of the development of this hardware is linked to bizarre, from the point of view of the modern economy, factors. The large number of models was due not to market demand, but to a system of funding and incentives for companies to produce a computer for general use. That is, the number of versions of the device was rather artificial and allowed to demonstrate: 'performance' in the development of production and thus attract support and resources.
    This is also followed by the strange nature of determining the price of this production. The Agate was originally intended for teaching purposes. It could therefore not be sold directly to private individuals. The myth of the high price is related to this.

    Let me remind you that in the USSR, in addition to the ruble for the citizen, there was another means of transaction, for settlements between enterprises. Its value had little to do with cash and even less with the ruble in currency. The announced price of the Agat took into account its value precisely in these units of settlement and was 3900 roubles (for state organisations only). While one of the first personal computers BK0010 (БК0010) cost 700 roubles (without a monitor) and was sold on the general market.

    Characteristics of the various versions produced .
    Almost 10 models were produced in total, despite speculation that there were more. This is due to the modular design, which could be changed at any time by including new options. The best-known next versions are:

    * Agat-1/2/3 (1980-83) - prototypes that received a digital designation (for an official demonstration at the ministry that was deciding whether to start production at the state-owned plant). Several more did not receive this designation - they were called: "Agate fifth model", "Agate red", etc. This period saw the transition from early machines being Russified Apple clones (the motherboard is an exact copy of the Apple II, the integrated circuits are analogues of the imported ones) to true Agates.
    * Red Agate (1983): handmade metal case. It was essentially a prototype.
    * Agat-4 (1984): experimental batch of 100 machines with architecture similar to the Agat-7.
    * Agat-7 (1985-90): RAM - 96 kb (up to 640 kb), disk drive - 140 kb (early versions) or 840 kb (later versions), serial and parallel interface module.
    * Agat-8 was similar to the Agat-7, but with a printer included.. Sometimes with increased base RAM and an extended character generator.
    * Agat-9 (1988-93): RAM - 128 kb (up to 640 kb), disk drive - 840 kb (sometimes supplemented by a second 140 kb drive), printer controller, Apple II emulation capability.
    * Gold Agate (1985): special version of the seven for the Ministry of Defence.

    Setup of US and Soviet equivalent hardware
    So let's compare the Apple II and the Agat. At first glance you can see the differences in the design of these computers. The Agat has a more contemporary design with a disk drive in the case.

    Modern Agat-9 computer motherboard on a workbench.
    Photo: Jeeno Laretti.
    .

    The motherboard is also quite different from that of the Apple II or Prawec.

    As for the drive stations, originally there were in fact drives similar to the Apple of Bulgarian manufacture used. However, this was not intentional. The problem was that they wanted to use a drive from the Japanese company TEAC with electronics developed by the manufacturer Agat with a capacity of 840 kb. However, delivery was late. Therefore, for the first batch, ЕС5088 drive stations, already adapted to work with the 6502 processor, were purchased. In these versions, the interaction with the drive was the same as in the original Apple - that is, the CPU fulfilled a large part of the controller's work.

    As for memory, the standard Agat had the option of detaching the ROM and connecting the RAM in ROM mode. Apple for this offered a separate card: "Language Card", which had some limitations.

    Apple's monitor controller had two memory banks with specific RAM addresses. Agat had any number of these, using any RAM address as video memory. Apple did not have the ability to use colours in text mode, whereas Agat in 32x32 character mode could display them in sixteen.

    The graphic capabilities of the Apple (screen resolution 280х192 pixels, black and white or 140х192 pixels, 6 colours) and the Agat (512х256 pixels, black and white or 256х256, colour) were more or less similar. However, their implementation was easier in Soviet hardware. Apple's problem was that it was designed to work with televisions with an NTSC decoder. In this standard, the selection depends on the position and colour of adjacent pixels on the screen. Agat worked with colour televisions of the SECAM standard, where these drawbacks did not exist.

    Bar chart on the screen of an Agat-9 computer.
    Agat's graphic capabilities. Photo: Grigory Gaevyy.


    Because of the difference in hardware, the creators of the Agat didn't much care for software from Apple, especially as this computer was oriented towards Soviet universities and American soft didn't quite fit. So they developed a huge amount of their own, which did not run on the original Apple II.

    Summary .
    The Agat was not a bad or good copy of Apple, but a separate computer, albeit modelled on a counterpart from the States. According to Vladimir, it was a success. However, I would not say that. The Agat was produced in a run of a few thousand units, while the Apple II was in the several million range.

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    About Author
    andreyatakum
    Level 14  
    Offline 
    andreyatakum wrote 551 posts with rating 761. Live in city Antalya. Been with us since 2021 year.
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  • #2 21109582
    andrzejlisek
    Level 31  
    andreyatakum wrote:
    Agat was not a bad or good copy of Apple, but a separate computer, albeit modelled on a counterpart from the States. In Vladimir's opinion, it was a success.


    From this it follows that the Agat is inspired by an Apple computer. Simply put, someone had an Apple in their hands, saw the solutions used in it, and then designed the computer from scratch, with more or less similar design solutions, but no attention was paid to any compatibility. It's the same as, for example, looking at a CA80, and then designing and building a computer from scratch with a 7-segment display and numeric keypad, looking like a clunky calculator, but with a completely different processor, such as an ATMega, and the display operated in a completely different way. For the rest, the Polish CA80 seems to be something similar to the British MK14 (Microcomputer Kit 14), but I wouldn't call it a clone at all, because while the computing capabilities are similar, the architecture is completely different and compatibility is nil.

    andreyatakum wrote:
    Apple's problem was that it was designed to work with NTSC decoder TVs. In this standard, selection depends on the position and colour of adjacent pixels on the screen. The Agat worked with colour televisions of the SECAM standard, in which these shortcomings did not exist.


    This problem in some cases, rather than being a cause for complaint, was welcomed and exploited:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_artifact_colors
    https://int10h.org/blog/2015/04/cga-in-1024-colors-new-mode-illustrated/
    https://int10h.org/blog/2015/08/8088-mph-final-old-vs-new-cga-gory-details/
    http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2013/11/ibm-pc-color-composite-graphics.html
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  • #3 21109713
    NegativeFeedback
    Level 14  
    andreyatakum wrote:
    In one of the topics on our forum, not at all about computers, rather about automobiles, a question was asked about Soviet hardware.


    The place of Russian junk is in the dustbin in real life and history. It could be radioactive or poisonous, I wouldn't touch it even with gloves on.
  • #4 21109782
    gulson
    System Administrator
    For me, however, it's a failed clone, tailored to the Soviet market, not that compatibility was necessarily going to be key here.

    In fact, the cloning of hardware is only going to start there. The Russians have suspended all licences, copyrights, brand rights, literally everything. McDonald's and Coca Cola clones are being made, and we can only wait to see how computer clones (less advanced) will be made, especially as they have the Chinese at their side, and there won't be much of a problem with parts. They need to be watched and certainly not ignored, as most do. They have switched their entire economy to a war economy, production is going full steam ahead. During war, the most interesting solutions are created, which will probably not be used peacefully.... In this will go the production of microcomputers and software, which are copies of unlicensed Western solutions. I won't be surprised if there will be Russian AI soon, they have good mathematicians too. It is easy to insult them, as in the predecessor's comment. I, unfortunately, am full of concerns. @andreyatakum if you know anything from your colleagues about what they are doing technologically now, let us know on the forum. I'm sure they are going hard with drones.
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  • #5 21109811
    bsw
    Level 21  
    NegativeFeedback wrote:
    andreyatakum wrote:
    In one of the topics on our forum, not at all about computers, rather about automobiles, a question was asked about Soviet hardware.


    The place of Russian junk is in the dustbin in real life and history. It could be radioactive or poisonous, I wouldn't touch it even with gloves.


    Wishful thinking...
    Contrary to the official propaganda that prophesied the end of the Russian economy, the country is doing well. Unfortunately, it is the countries of the European Union that are on the straight path to going to the "dustbin of reality and history". They are systematically destroying their economy - industry, agriculture, energy but also their identity and culture....

    Examples from our (electronic) backyard:
    - What phones did we have in our pockets 20 years ago? - Mostly European: Nokia, Siemens, Ericsson, Alcatel, Sagem. And now?
    - Where are the giants of European electronics like Philips, Grundig, Thompson, Blaupunkt?
    They are making cars ... yet. Because in a maximum of 10 years the end of that too.

    Europe is bankrupt.
    The future is in the countries of Asia - which unfortunately includes Russia....
  • #6 21109954
    andreyatakum
    Level 14  
    bsw wrote:
    The future is the countries of Asia - meaning also Russia unfortunately...
    .
    The future of what? Electronics and other consumer goods are not the whole economy. All the more so in Russia it is not as much as its future.
    Poland exports furniture to the tune of 13 mlrd euro a year. The same amount is exported by Russian military equipment. But the devil is in the small things. The problem is that the military equipment is exported by the state. But it does not get cash from it. Because it sells on "installments", which nobody pays for, for annulations of debts of people from the government ą MPs get bribes from those countries that "buy" this equipment, produced on money from the state budget.
    If someone does not want to give a bribe another scheme works. E.g. Indonesia bought a party of Russian fighters but did not want to pay cash. It offered palm oil. Russian officials gave the go-ahead because the sale of the oil is done by their relatives' private companies and I wouldn't give my head to ensure that the money goes to the budget. That's just the way business is done there. For this Russia will suffer the fate of the Soviet Union.

    Added after 2 [minutes]: .

    bsw wrote:
    Contrary to official propaganda that predicted the end of the Russian economy, the country is doing well.
    .
    Moscow only. I come from Siberia.
  • #7 21109978
    bsw
    Level 21  
    andreyatakum wrote:
    bsw wrote:
    The future is the countries of Asia - which means also Russia unfortunately...
    .
    The future of what? Electronics and other consumer goods are not the whole of the economy.

    I fear that Europe will not have anything to pay for these consumer goods.
    And not just consumer goods because it is also going to buy food.
    So I predict that in a dozen or so years the migration of (hungry) peoples will be to the east and Belarus will be forced to defend the border ...

    andreyatakum wrote:

    bsw wrote:
    Contrary to official propaganda that predicted the end of the Russian economy, this country is doing well.

    Moscow only. I'm from Siberia.

    Russia will always sell raw materials of which it has plenty - especially in Siberia.
    And it has always done without excess consumer goods (except in Moscow :-) )
  • #8 21110003
    andreyatakum
    Level 14  
    bsw wrote:
    I am afraid that Europe will not have the means to pay for these consumer goods.
    .
    Europe has the technology and financial institutions.
    bsw wrote:
    Russia will always sell raw materials of which it has plenty - especially in Siberia.
    The Soviet Union had more but the economy had more.
    The Soviet Union had more but the economy went to shit.
  • #9 21110031
    bsw
    Level 21  
    andreyatakum wrote:
    Europe has the technologies and the financial institutions.

    It had the technologies - it gave them up to the Chinese and now has nothing left to trade for the goods....
    And what will these financial institutions be worth when the stock market fizzles?

    andreyatakum wrote:
    The Soviet Union had more but the economy went to shit.

    Two years ago they violently broke with the Western model of dismantling their own economic potential.
    Paradoxically, sanctions only make it easier for them to become independent and get back on their feet.

    You can pretend to yourself that it is otherwise - unfortunately, these are the facts....
  • #10 21110222
    NegativeFeedback
    Level 14  
    bsw wrote:
    Goodwill ...
    Contrary to official propaganda that prophesied the end of the Russian economy, the country is doing well. Unfortunately, it is the countries of the European Union that are on the straight path to going to the "dustbin of reality and history". They are systematically destroying their economy - industry, agriculture, energy but also their identity and culture...


    This country is a ruin, economically and humanly. Look around if you have anything of substance from this country, I'm shooting that nothing, that no technology, idea, religion, politics, deeper thought has come out of this area for a long time.... Tens of millions of zombies, tens of millions of people starting their day by pouring a glass of some liquid into themselves, quoting with relish humanist-Nazis like Pushkin, laying flowers at monuments to criminals like Stalin, Lenin..., afraid to look honestly into the deeds of their 'heroes'. The EU will survive or not, it is only an institution, civilisation will not collapse from it. Europe functioned admirably without Russia for centuries, without its cheap raw materials, achievements and ideology. Its brief period of influence on the fate of Europe resulted only in wars, crimes and destruction. The EU is a new creation, if we don't like it any more we will vote like the British and that is that.
  • #11 21110288
    mmm777
    Level 31  
    gulson wrote:
    I won't be surprised if there will be Russian AI soon, they have good mathematicians too.


    Eh, those memories of the USSR.... A Soviet school that is long gone....

    There are some problems:
    "In reality, everything is very bad. Teachers' salaries, for example, were literally miserable, which actually still kept the country from descending into complete savagery. Teachers are overwhelmed by a huge workload and pointless reporting, and have no tools to maintain order and discipline in classrooms, where there are more and more 'new barbarians', both local and foreign children. And without order and discipline, academic performance will be very low.

    Teachers work 1.5-2 rates to survive. In almost 90% of regions, teachers' salaries are below the minimum wage. Most teachers receive 20-30 thousand roubles in hand. Is it any wonder that, according to the results of surveys conducted on the eve of 1 September 2023. 71% of Russian teachers did not want to return to work in the new academic year due to unsatisfactory working conditions. This is a real disaster in the field of education."


    "Unfortunately, it is not worth it. Russia is the only country on the list where the number of researchers has decreased compared to 2000. At that time, 506,400 people were involved in research respectively, a 23% decrease.

    In the same period, the number of researchers in China increased by 3.46 times. In Brazil, it is 3.5 times. South Korea - 4.4 times. India - 2.8 times. USA - 1.4 times. Taiwan - 3 times.

    ALL countries on the list have increased, and most of them have increased significantly. And only Russia has decreased. This is a major 'victory' for the national 'Science' project."
  • #12 21110518
    gps79
    Level 36  
    andreyatakum wrote:
    they got their hands on 10 Apple II computers.
    .
    If such a socialist country gets its head down, it is even able to compete (in the local market) with a western company, provided it manages to steal that company's technology.
    andreyatakum wrote:
    Agat was produced in an outlay of a few thousand units
    .
    This is how it ends when it is the batch and not the market that decides production needs. In the early days of home computing, both manufacturers and users squeezed 100% out of every cent invested in hardware, and this accurately pointed the way forward. We remember the races of Apple, Commodore, Atari, Intel. A socialist country can only foolishly copy because it does not give society the opportunity to develop products through purchasing decisions. So what if such a country has money if it spends it foolishly.
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  • #13 21110909
    gregor124
    Level 26  
    I won't comment on Agat's capabilities because I don't know much about it. Perhaps only what I can deduce from this interesting emulator of Apple, Agat and other clones
    https://sourceforge.net/projects/agatemulator/
    Unfortunately, in describing the Apple II, the author has made many mistakes. These are probably in part due to his unfamiliarity with this computer, but also due to erroneous descriptions that are duplicated by various authors who, also unfamiliar with these computers, look for analogies to familiar home computers intended mainly to play more or less elaborate games ;) .

    The Apple II was very different from other designs, it was designed by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. It had many of the characteristics of a serious computer. And it was designed to be a computer for life, as one advertisement said.
    For example, all the circuits were in the socket, which made it much easier to repair (these circuits were, and in fact still are, available in electronics shops).
    It is a pity that today they do not design like this ;) .
    Let's start with what is immediately apparent. Apple's case is very solid, but at the same time the computer is lightweight. It is very easy to open and close with one hand. There are no snaps that will break, no screws that will get lost, no threads that will break after a few times. You open it, close it and so on a few thousand times and the case holds like the first time ;) .
    On another note. ;) You designed your own interface to investigate supernatural phenomena. The good with the electronics went easily because the whole Apple is built with TTL-LS circuits. All signals are digitally synchronised and there is no ViC there, for example, which, even though the CPU clock is already less than 1MHz, "pushes" on the CPU phase anyway. As a result you have to choose a capacitor, resistor or maybe all together and wonder if the one you took won't be too small or too big for the next revision of the PCB, ViC and other magic ;) .
    Once you've dealt with these problems it's time to software your interface. Ideally this should be done on some BASIC preferably with an extended choice of obvious memory banking, so in the case of the Atari or C64 cartridge. Just how to put it together now ? ;) .
    And on the Apple II you insert your interface into one of the eight slots.
    You insert your extended BASIC into the Language Card (not enough memory, you insert a SATURN card and there is an extra 128kB , not yet ? you insert a second SATURN and there is 256kB, there is also a Language Card with the possibility to address 256x128kB and you can duplicate it too, although I don't know if it was ever made in full size).
    Your super chip needs interrupts - in the Apple II you have them exclusively at your disposal, the system does not need them. What does this mean?
    E.g. in Commodore after handling your interrupt you have to give control to the interrupt handling system to make e.g. the keyboard work, this takes a lot of time, and what if then a new interrupt occurs? disaster/.
    And in Apple you finish your interrupt and can already accept the next one. The keyboard always works ;) .
    If you do not have enough computing power, you can insert an accelerator with Z80, 6809, 65c02 4MHz, 68000, 65816 to choose from, also from various manufacturers.
    In addition, there are no bad lines, memory refreshing during the processor and similar CPU stops.. Everything works in tact with the CPU and, surprisingly, fits into the computer case.

    And now back to AGAT.
    Its capabilities pale into insignificance if you compare it not to a computer from 1976 but to what you could have bought in 1983 (it was already the Apple IIe) with graphics times 2 and 128 kB RAM and more. Plus several different RAM expansion card standards.
    The lack of Apple compatibility is a disadvantage, however, in my opinion. But maybe that was the point, so that some kid wouldn't accidentally smuggle in some Western program and start comparing the West to the USSR ;) .
    andreyatakum wrote:
    With regard to memory, the standard Agat had the option of disconnecting ROM and connecting RAM in ROM mode. Apple for this offered a separate card: "Language Card", which had some limitations.
    .
    What limitations are you writing about? The Language Card allowed you to turn the ROM off or on. You could enable one of the modes e.g. ROM only, read from ROM, write to RAM, read from RAM only, or read and write to RAM allowed.
    In addition, there were cards, e.g. SATURN128, which, in addition to LA compatibility, offered e.g. 128 kB of RAM in switchable banks of 16 kB each, which allowed several versions of programming languages, DOS and the so-called RAM-disk to be loaded, and since it was a card, several could be inserted, increasing the available memory. They were also used in CP/M and also UCSDPascal systems.
    andreyatakum wrote:
    Agatu (512х256 pixels, black and white or 256х256, colour) were more or less similar
    .
    These resolutions suggest that they must have either changed the clock frequency, or the graphics were out of sync with the CPU.
    Which must have slowed down graphics operations a lot.
    In my opinion, the Soviet engineers did not understand the idea of Woz, so they either modelled themselves on an early version of the AppleII or copied not the Apple, but e.g. the English licensed clone ITT2020, which was the first pre-Apple II Europlus version working in PAL but had different graphic modes (wider screen).
    It is very easy to adapt any Apple II model to any system. Unlike with Atari or Commodore. All you have to do is replace the 14.31818 MHz (NTSC) quartz with a very similar 14.238 MHz (for PAL), change 2 jumpers on the PCB and Voilà. To be completely happy, all you need to do is insert a PAL encoder card, and if you have the PAL version, switch the signal cable from the encoder to the socket still present at the back of the chassis ;) .
    Apparently the PAL encoder card (to make it more fun built on a decoder chip ;) ) can be converted to SECAM.
    As for larger capacity floppy disks, there were plenty of such solutions, but they did not catch on because of software compatibility.
    A 140 kB drive per side of floppy had everyone else, they had some. Apple did a larger if using 3.5' floppy disks, and 51/4 I think had one drive but more for PC data exchange.

    As for the AppleII's graphics it was designed so that there was nothing like the
    as on other computers, here is an example of Atari screen in high resolution mode:
    Example of moiré effect on an Atari computer screen in high-resolution mode. .
    In appleII moira was controlled and used to create colours ;) .

    https://youtu.be/r1VlrJboDMw?t=325
  • #14 21111161
    stasiekb100
    Level 29  
    NegativeFeedback wrote:
    Europe functioned admirably without Russia for centuries, without its cheap raw materials, achievements and ideology. Its brief period of influence on the fate of Europe resulted only in wars, crimes and destruction.
    .
    This is where I disagree. Europe had overseas colonies for centuries, and it fell to Russia to set them up there too. Russia was not indebted to them for this either .
  • #15 21111553
    mmm777
    Level 31  
    stasiekb100 wrote:
    NegativeFeedback wrote:
    without its cheap raw materials
    .

    In fact, Russia itself has positioned itself as a raw material colony of the West. And the inhabitants of raw material colonies usually don't live very well.... (During Stalin's time, this wouldn't have passed...).

    The Agate doesn't look like mass equipment. For the masses it was made by Sinclair: a foil keyboard, fumbled memory, a handful of TTLs and a processor.
  • #16 21111962
    andreyatakum
    Level 14  
    mmm777 wrote:
    For the masses, this is what Sinclair did: a foil keyboard, fumbled memory, a handful of TTLs and a processor.

    In the USSR the Sinclair did not make it. But there they made other models "for the masses"-Vector-06c, Radio-86 (Apogee) and others. I had some of these already in Russia. But the problem was the opragramming. From this the great popularity of Spectrum clones but just before the success of the PC. That is, with a big delay....
  • #17 21112091
    gregor124
    Level 26  
    By the way, I came across information about 3 Apple II clones that were offered (perhaps also assembled) in Poland. Virtually no information survives about two of them. One of them, Lidia (Apple II plus clone), was certainly produced in Poland by CSK Computer Studio Kajkowscy, and even had polonised characters and DOS. About 200 units of this computer were produced.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=5342706462521924&set=a.1171981269594485
  • #18 21112914
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #19 21113817
    NegativeFeedback
    Level 14  
    stasiekb100 wrote:
    This is where I disagree. Europe had overseas colonies for centuries, and it fell to Russia to set them up there too. Russia was not indebted to them for this either .
    .

    We are talking about about 1000 years when some kind of creation , which in the east was created and was somehow recognised as a separate entity. The clash of the last 250 years is Russia's push westwards , from the mud, the flies of Siberia, poverty and backwardness to civilisation. History does not record some invasion of Russia by the west, because why should it? :) )) Raw materials can be bought ...
  • #20 21113831
    bsw
    Level 21  
    NegativeFeedback wrote:
    History does not record some sort of Western invasion of Russia, because why should it? :) ))
    .
    With the exception of the one in 1612 (and the failed ones of 1812 and 1942).
    Notabene Russian propaganda constantly raises this first episode and builds its national identity on the liberation from "Polish occupation".
    Poland is constantly presented as a dormant superpower which, however, is constantly plotting against Russia....
  • #21 21113913
    NegativeFeedback
    Level 14  
    bsw wrote:
    NegativeFeedback wrote:
    History does not record some sort of Western invasion of Russia, because why should it? ))
    .
    Except for the one in 1612 (and the failed ones of 1812 and 1942).
    Notabene Russian propaganda constantly brings up this first episode and builds its national identity on the liberation from "Polish occupation".
    Poland is constantly presented as a sleeping superpower which, however, is constantly plotting against Russia...
    .

    Oh there, in 1612 the goal was not the invasion of the Republic of Poland against Russia :) Our ancestors thought that the idea of universal freedom would cause people to flock to it on their own, that the political system then widely regarded as the best in Europe would suffice . This mythologised 1612 hurts Russians probably because the Muscovite elite, without any coercion, polonised themselves - they shaved their beards, wrote in Polish, spoke Polish, even wore Polish, not to mention the widespread respect for the hussars. In 1612, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth stood a bit on the sidelines and did not get particularly involved, it is enough to have a look at how few Polish troops went on this expedition .... Moscow was not some deliberate intention of the Commonwealth, because why was the Commonwealth such a country as Russia ? Backward, Orthodoxy, widespread bribery, local 'mafiosi', the problems themselves, and this is more or less how the elites of the Republic saw it.

    Napoleon's aim in 1812 was not to conquer Russia but to win the war with Britain. Russia, pursuing its imperial goals, broke the terms of the treaties as usual, forcing Napoleon to enter Russia. This is a similar analogue to the USSR's 1939 treaty with Hitler. In these treaties, Russia had masses of soldiers to offer in return for accepting further territorial gains. This pattern of action has been repeated over and over again for the last 250 years.

    1942 - was largely Hitler's pre-emptive war , he realised that the USSR was preparing to conquer the west and postponing this war would result in Stalin being stronger in a few years and conquering the Reich. Suffice it to say how desperate this move was that he never planned to go further than Moscow .... he had no plan to occupy/conquer the rest. The USSR was preparing to attack, the Germans wanted to overtake this attack, that's the whole story, two bandit systems took each other by the head .... And it is difficult to speak of an invasion of the West, the West was fighting the Reich and helping the USSR. without this help the USSR might have succumbed to the Reich.

    In any case, history does not record an invasion of Russia by the West, the reverse is true.
  • #22 21114508
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #23 21117431
    dgolf
    Level 15  
    Admins in such a thread are asleep ...
  • #24 21137249
    gregor124
    Level 26  
    The Agat is nevertheless an interesting computer, does anyone know if documentation is available for it?
  • Topic summary

    The discussion centers around the Soviet Agat computer, often perceived as a clone of the Apple II. Participants debate its design origins, noting that while the Agat was inspired by the Apple II, it lacked compatibility and was tailored for the Soviet market. Some contributors argue that the Agat represents a failed attempt at cloning, emphasizing the absence of a coherent software ecosystem and the use of non-Soviet microprocessors. The conversation also touches on broader themes of technological development in the Soviet Union, comparisons with other Soviet models like the Vektor-06C and Apogej, and the implications of hardware cloning in the context of historical and economic factors. Additionally, there is a mention of the availability of documentation for the Agat, indicating ongoing interest in its legacy.
    Summary generated by the language model.
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