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DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation

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  • DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation
    When I noticed for a long time that the watch was out of sync with the DCF receiver, at first I suspected problems with the strength of the DCF77 signal transmitted from German territory. After contacting a ham radio operator who has a similar watch at his operating station, it became clear that the cause must be some local interference or a failure of the watch. I got the hint to try to detect the source of possible interference with a longwave receiver. This was a hoot, the source of the strong interference was the SMPS power supply with which I replaced the faulty unit. The power supply visible in the photo, by the way, replaced several other plug-in power supplies that arrived around the ONT device, switch, router, i.e. the devices that provide internet access in the house. It is a model EA 10850D1 MW Power power supply.

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation
    .

    The interference generated by the power supply was strong and modulated by the operation of the inverter and also depended on the current drawn from the power supply.



    .

    I looked through the box of power supplies and through selection using a receiver managed to find a specimen with low levels of radio interference. This is the model GSM36B12 MW MEAN WELL power supply.

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation
    .

    The interference has a smaller range and is more like a hum than a whirr.



    .

    The current waveform (blue) at the input of the first PSU reveals that this is a design without active PFC correction. At this power this is not mandatory and with the low price of the product it is not possible. The yellow trace is obviously the mains voltage sine wave.

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation
    .

    There are "pins" superimposed on the current waveform this is probably the result of operating at a certain frequency of the inverter circuit.

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation


    The waveforms are quite complex they are repetitive double current pins.

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation


    A power supply that generates less distortion also does not have an active PFC circuit, but no additional spikes are imposed on the current waveform.

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation
    .

    At idle, the first power supply also generates cyclic current spikes.

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation


    The second power supply at idle draws a current that resembles a sine wave.

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation


    The output voltage of the first supply is more strongly noisy,

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation


    compared to a power supply that generates a lower level of interference.

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation
    .

    I managed to eliminate the source of DCF signal interference. SMPS power supplies offer high efficiency, high currents, small dimensions but sometimes generate strong radio interference. The current drawn by such power supplies is strongly distorted, in power supplies with higher power we find active PFC systems and the current drawn has a chance to resemble a sine wave.

    Comparison of input current of power supplies without and with active PFC:
    .


    .

    Have you encountered electronic devices that, by their level of interference, impeded the reception of radio signals?

    When PLC (power line comunication) appeared ham radio operators were concerned about strong interference on the amateur bands. It turned out that PLC did not become that popular, while SMPS are often enough to cover weak radio signals with their whirring. It used to be that TV receivers and ~15KHz deflection drew a strong mark on the FFT in the software receivers of VLF band listeners. Now it is common for the LED 'bulb' to generate interference in the wider band. The amount of RF interference has increased quite strongly over the years.

    Here is more about active PFC correction with oscillograms and internal design of power supplies:
    .


    .

    DCF77 reception interference due to pulse power supply operation
    .

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  • #2 21339502
    prosiak_wej
    Level 39  
    Article showing that:
    - A cheap power supply is worth g.
    - MW Power is not Mean Well (and I once encountered such a statement in an electronics shop)

    By the way, I like to buy power supplies from shops like a lumpx or a junk shop from Germany, because they are usually power supplies from some routers, SkyBox type TV receivers. On the other hand, when I need to buy something quickly for the company, it's TME and Mean Well power supplies.

    I wonder how the popular HiLink PCB soldered power supplies, whose durability is quite good :) perform in such measurements.
  • #3 21339566
    szymon122
    Level 38  
    Can such a PFC module exist as an external module connected from the 230V side?
    It is not always possible to replace the power supply.
  • #4 21339793
    Janusz_kk
    Level 39  
    szymon122 wrote:
    Can such a PFC module exist as an external module connected from the 230V side?
    It is not always possible to replace the power supply.
    .
    But why? It is not the lack of PFC that makes noise and interference. The PFC itself also generates interference independently of the inverter.
    It's better to use a filter, except that it's live on the mains so it has to be done right, sealed in a box so it doesn't hurt someone else and still shielded.
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  • #5 21339795
    LeszekBytom1
    Level 8  
    >>21339333 Hello, I had a very similar problem with an active TV antenna and a Mi scooter charger of type BCTA 71420-1791. Switching on the charger effectively disabled TV reception. Only moving the charger about 3m away from the antenna helped. I suspect very poor quality of shielding and filtering of inputs and outputs in this type of power supplies and chargers. Filtering elements unfortunately cost money....
  • #6 21339807
    szeryf3
    Level 29  
    I put up a Christmas tree on Saturday.
    There is a router under it.
    Well, and the problem started with receiving TV using Wi-Fi when the Christmas tree lights up.
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  • #7 21339812
    Janusz_kk
    Level 39  
    szeryf3 wrote:
    when the lights glow on the Christmas tree.

    Do they flicker? if so block them (there is a tips topic) and see if it helps :) .
  • #8 21339816
    szeryf3
    Level 29  
    Not when they are on all the time because blinking makes me slightly nervous
  • #9 21339829
    gulson
    System Administrator
    The manufacturer of such power supplies should be punished!
    This is unthinkable.
    How is a non-technical person supposed to function in this world, how is he supposed to know why a watch goes out of sync and no telling what else.
  • #10 21339850
    TechEkspert
    Editor
    @simon122 the question about active PFC in front of the PSU surprised me, it's usually a built-in module that increases the voltage on the capacitor already behind the PSU bridge.

    As external devices I have seen in larger installations active reactive power compensators but we are talking about powers of a few to a few hundred kVar. Such systems previously appeared as choke/capacitor banks + regulator. They usually cover the whole building or a dedicated part of the production. For single power supplies, I have not seen APFC as a separate module. EMI filters, on the other hand, appear as ready-made boxes, sometimes integrated into the C13 socket or a separate board in the power supply.
  • #11 21339863
    ArturAVS
    Moderator
    TechEkspert wrote:
    the question about active PFC in front of the PSU surprised me, usually it is a built-in module that increases the voltage on the capacitor already behind the bridge of the PSU.
    .
    Especially since the PFC is sized/and designed for the specific power supply....
  • #12 21339875
    Janusz_kk
    Level 39  
    szeryf3 wrote:
    Not when they light up all the time because the blinking annoys me mildly
    .
    But that doesn't mean at all that they are nicely sine powered, it could still be a triac that only starts from a certain sine voltage, we can't see it but the interference it generates. Only shorting this triac will have an effect.
  • #13 21340302
    prosiak_wej
    Level 39  
    Janusz_kk wrote:
    This is a better filter


    And such filters, either as stand-alone modules or integrated into the socket, can be bought without any problem:

    Schurter electrical filter shown on a white background. EMI filter module with a power switch and socket. .
  • #14 21340342
    acctr
    Level 38  
    DCF synchronised watches have the disadvantage that they do not continuously signal the quality of the signal reception and there is no chance of finding the optimum location for it.

    TechEkspert wrote:
    The interference generated by the power supply was strong and modulated by the operation of the inverter, it also depended on the current drawn from the power supply.
    .
    TechEkspert wrote:
    I looked through the box of power supplies and through selection using a receiver managed to find a specimen with low levels of radio interference. It is a GSM36B12 MW MEAN WELL power supply model.
    .
    As far as I can see, the power supply is connected to the mains with a two-wire cable with no earth. This could already indicate interference problems, as the Y capacitors connecting the secondary ground to PE do a lot to eliminate them.
    Helpful post? Buy me a coffee.
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  • #15 21340445
    kris8888
    Level 39  
    TechEkspert wrote:
    The output voltage of the first power supply is more noisy,
    .
    It is worthwhile selecting power supplies for themselves in terms of ripple and noise values at the output. Test under some kind of constant load. A standby test can also be useful. You can be really surprised how some power supplies, even from reputable companies, can produce a lot of "garbage" at the output. Despite efficient filtering elements.
    Routers, switches, laptops and smartphones are usually able to cope somehow with this "garbage" on power supply, but e.g. video intercoms, Bluetooth audio adapters, not to mention ordinary radio receivers - not necessarily.
  • #16 21340473
    LEDówki
    Level 43  
    If the inverters are able to interfere with UKF, BT and TV, then they are very bad. I've got some pads that interfere just like that.
  • #17 21340580
    Janusz_kk
    Level 39  
    acctr wrote:
    As far as I can see, the power supply is connected to the mains with a two-wire cable without earth.
    .
    Because such power supplies are built that way, class 2 protection, i.e. with double insulation, PE is unnecessary for them, only that then unfortunately they 'sow'.
  • #18 21340648
    TechEkspert
    Editor
    Good observation, in fact these power supplies do not have a PE connection, the C7 radio plug used is the so-called figure eight.
  • #19 21340892
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #20 21340920
    LEDówki
    Level 43  
    DaoLong battery charger. Model YH-2120 - chaffs mainly PR1 on 225 kHz. When switched on it noises the radio in the other room beautifully.
    A charger that comes with a Zundapp bike. This one manages to interfere with the TV, actually the antenna amplifier.
    USB power supply 5V 2A - also interferes with TV and radio reception when switched on. Long-wave also gets it.
    Interestingly the YH-2120 plugged into the mains socket next to the Dell power supply no longer interferes so much. The filters of the Dell power supply suppress the garbage produced by the YH-2120.
    From other interferers - SHARP TV when switching channels and when working on some channels interferes with a set-top box connected to the same antenna.
    A Philips shaver interferes with a long wave radio.
    Inverters in work lamps - interfere with radio reception on the UKF range. It is impossible to drive a tractor at night and listen to the radio.
  • #21 21341002
    kris8888
    Level 39  
    TechEkspert wrote:
    Good observation, in fact these power supplies do not have a PE connection, a C7 radio plug is used, the so-called figure eight
    .
    A good power supply does not necessarily need a PE connection to be "quiet" in terms of RF interference. There are quite a few quite good DIN rail mounted switching power supplies or even laptop power supplies that do not have a PE connection and are ok. Or most switching power supplies built into LCD TVs, monitors. A matter of topology, quality and shielding.

    Branded smartphone chargers do not interfere too much either.

    However, when, for example, I am tuning an FM tuner from OIRT to CCIR, I have to disconnect my computer and the monitor I have on my desk from the mains because, unfortunately, they are interfering. Although the computer and monitor are brand-name.
  • #22 21341165
    szeryf3
    Level 29  
    A few days ago I was watching an interview with one ham radio operator.
    He said that the nightmare for them is the holidays when people install all sorts of twinkly lights. This is when the quality of radio connections drops because of interference.
  • #23 21341209
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #24 21341440
    -rafal-
    Level 15  
    For all those to whom DCF77 does not arrive, I recommend an app from the google shop: "DCF77 Emulator" emulates the DCF77 signal using a speaker coil.

    PS. Before you write that it has no right to work, first check ;) Only prerequisite is that the original DCF77 does not arrive, otherwise the frames will overlap and it will not work (I recommend testing in a metal box).
  • #25 21341525
    kris8888
    Level 39  
    -rafal- wrote:
    For all those to whom DCF77 does not arrive I recommend an app from the google shop: "DCF77 Emulator" emulates the DCF77 signal using a speaker coil
    .
    The problem is that the watch has to practically touch the smartphone for this to work. A more interesting option would be to build yourself a local mini DCF77 transmitter, controlled from some NTP. Eventually controlled from some very accurate quartz clock.
    TechEkspert wrote:
    Have you come across electronic devices which, with their level of interference, made reception of radio signals difficult?
    .
    Nowadays it is rather difficult to buy anything that is powered by an ordinary linear power supply and is without a microcontroller clocked by some kind of radio frequency clock. It can be assumed that most devices more or less interfere with the radio band.
    The most annoying problem I once encountered was interference with my garage remote controls on the 443MHz frequency. Unfortunately, to this day I don't know what the source of this was, whether it was some kind of switching power supply or jammer, a street lamp or some other source of industrial interference.
  • #26 21341818
    CosteC
    Level 39  
    ledo99 wrote:
    Panasonica - sows all the way - I wonder how it is that they pass EMI/EMC approval? - Here I have a bite because the currents and powers require a non-trivial filter (30A).

    Check the manual. Probably the filter has to be bought and installed separately, as for many inverters. It is possible that the installer "forgot".

    The Polish state and much of the world cheerfully ignores product testing and penalising importers/manufacturers. And such controls would improve the competitiveness of our economy.... Because if one Januszex dies with the other it's a good thing. In my opinion, of course.
  • #27 21342145
    SP5IT
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    There is only one "repair" method for such power supplies
    Hammer with a wooden handle and metal head by KRAFT&DELE. .
  • #28 21342447
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #29 21342456
    CosteC
    Level 39  
    ledo99 wrote:
    >>21341818 Did he forget to say that you have to or did he forget to install ? - for me EMC/EMI filters are not optional and should be an integral part of the device.

    Some yes, some no. The manufacturer can write buy the A or B filter you prefer there, EMC meets with both, A meets the A standard, B meets the stricter B standard - buy what suits you. But it won't force you to buy any. At least I've seen inverters sold that way.
    What does the manual for the pump say?

    And the installer... Well, it was supposed to be cheap - it is cheap. It's supposed to be good? It's cheap. "Lord, nobody buys it, it's a rip-off from the EU, it's pointless, there's no interference, the standards are cheated, the earth is flat, after all you can see" :) :) :) after all we know how it works in practice. DPFs are bad too, and the ozone hole is a superstition like climate change.
  • #30 21342606
    TechEkspert
    Editor
    I fitted additional filters to several LED luminaires as they were heavily interfering with the RTL-DVBT dongle.

    @szeryf3 is the shortwave interview you mention available to view?

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around interference issues affecting DCF77 signal reception, primarily caused by a switching power supply (SMPS) model EA 10850D1 MW Power. Users shared experiences of various devices, including chargers and power supplies, that generate significant electromagnetic interference (EMI), disrupting radio and TV signals. Suggestions included using EMI filters, relocating devices, and selecting higher-quality power supplies to mitigate interference. The conversation highlighted the importance of proper shielding and filtering in electronic devices to prevent signal degradation, especially during the holiday season when additional electrical devices are in use.
Summary generated by the language model.
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