@Zukes Such an amount of dust is created during drying that I cannot imagine an effective (and relatively cheap) self-cleaning system: https://youtu.be/UilreO-FkZ4 If you also take into account that there are two exchangers in a device with a heat pump and they probably look similar to the "cube" from the refrigerator: http://jackiewiczowie.blogspot.com/2014/12/lodowka-zuzycie-energii-elektrycznej.html There is no effective way to reach the center of the tangle of exchanger tubes, and if you accidentally damage them in a heat pump dryer (or refrigerator), you need the equipment that your colleague has @ levy ^ , or someone repairing fridges.
Zukes wrote:
And most importantly, what the sellers will not tell you, the energy gain is only for new, clean devices, as it becomes dirty, it drops to almost 0 compared to ordinary devices.
And here is the gist. The energy profit is to first pay the difference in the purchase of a more expensive device and should allow to "earn". It seems that apart from additional troubles, nothing will even pay off, so quoting the classic "why overpay".
Bosch's representative (not the seller) says that you should take only with a pump. That the "self cleaning" is an advantage. There is not even a cap to open to wash the dust off. Cheaper dryers without a pump have such openings for washing. I think they rinse something out themselves, I don't know exactly. I was focused on an ordinary Bosch dryer, but the Showroom of this brand convinced me to only take with a pump. I am skeptical for A ++ ect classes because I bought a Bosch dishwasher of a higher model and it is worse than the 11-year-old quite basic model. It washes worse and dries worse (and it smells of it always wet inside)
Added after 5 [minutes]:
Arguments Bosch used for the pump: 1. Lower drying temperature 55C VS 80C, so it does not damage the inscriptions 2. It doesn't generate that much heat 3. Self-cleaning as something incomparably better for manual cleaning after each wash
Bosch did not mention Fr. 4. Longer drying time for the pump version, which reduces the comfort of use (I have a dishwasher that washes 3 hours, so thank you for such devices and programs lasting half a day) 5. Killing the exchanger with muck and the inability to clean it
@Arbitrator I will write like a user of a cheaper dryer:
Ad. 1: The dryer has not damaged anything for me yet. I dry things for the baby so we have a lot of T-shirts with something pressed on. Because of our passion, we also have sports, serious, expensive and expedition things. Undersuits, high mountain clothing, T-shirts and fleece with emblems. There are no losses so far, but we have a button in the dryer for "gentle drying". It works in such a way that the air is heated with half of the heater's power (such a heater in the dryer).
***
Ad. 2 A dryer without a heat pump does not generate much heat to the environment. During hot summer it is imperceptible, it is indifferent. When you enter the bathroom you don't feel hot or warm, steam or anything. There is simply not enough heat produced. I have some temperature and humidity measurements on my blog.
In spring, autumn and winter, it gives a little warmth to the apartment. It is not something you can heat an apartment with! The heat that will be given to the apartment for 3/4 of the year - in Polish conditions - is not wasted, something there will always add to the work of radiators. It is even desirable, for example: at the end of August, when something dries up in the evening and the radiators are not working yet.
But I would compare it volume heat pump dryers and without.
***
Ad. 3 This is interesting, because in the video from # 31 you can see how veeery (note sarcasm) it takes a long time to clean the heat exchanger in a dryer without a heat pump. Less than 5 minutes. We probably clean the exchanger once a month. When it is clean, the dryer will be cheaper and dry faster. Whose we rinse the exchanger with pressurized water (shower) about 12 times a year. Sometimes, when it happens to me, probably once a year, I still use dishwashing liquid for rinsing.
Clean after each drying one filter (you can also see it in the video). If it is not cleaned, there is no problem, you can not do it for 2-3 drying times, but like any clogged filter, it will impede the air flow and reduce the drying efficiency and increase the drying costs.
However, how many filters does a self-cleaning dryer have? Filters that need to be manually cleaned? Maybe even buy and exchange? How is the heat exchanger cleaned? In post # 31 (link to the blog) you can see how difficult it is to clean the "cube" heat exchanger from the refrigerator. I was looking for videos on YT about self-cleaning clothes dryer and found. https://youtu.be/_n4pPOSCJIM Water only flows by gravity onto the exchanger? For this not for the entire exchanger? The second video shows how dense the heat exchanger in the dryer is: https://youtu.be/LwYi28v7vu0
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Now we use only one program ... Sometimes we use the button to reduce the drying temperature - that's the number of programs needed.
I would like to compare all the time real costs of using a heat pump dryer and without. Is the difference in electricity consumption really 50%? Do not compare the catalog data, only the actual measurements, such as how I did for 6 months with my dryer without a heat pump.
https://youtu.be/iMjlBHX1TUo?t=7m13s You can see how many debris gets through the filter. You can also see that it is difficult to insert, because it must adhere well to ensure the greatest possible tightness.
*** In the video below you can see the owner of a heat pump dryer trying to clean the heat exchanger. With a toothbrush ... You only get to the very front of the first of the two heat exchangers. Good luck ... https://youtu.be/uJfd1WaN_IQ
I have a hair dryer with a water container at the bottom, next to the floor. It seemed an inconvenience to me, but thanks to this there is no water in the exchanger. However, it was only in this video that I saw that I do not want a dryer with a container on top. https://youtu.be/uJfd1WaN_IQ?t=3m38s This is the place where life arises ... Warm water, dark - live, don't die! Massacre. In my dryer there is no moisture in the heat exchanger, clean water collects right away in the container from which we pour it. The container is perfectly clean, with no trace of mold or other life. You can drink from it. The water is poured out every few washes. 3 maybe 4 - I don't know, but it's not bothersome.
thanks for the videos. One of these Bosch machines is the one that Bosch praised (Serie8) I was just talking to a user of an ordinary dryer who says this: in summer, the laundry is air-dried anyway, so the heat from the machine does not bother me. And in winter, this warmth in the house is useful, so it is not a waste.
With a separate and efficiently ventilated laundry room, I think that the generated heat will not be a problem.
So what to buy without a pump? All the signs in the sky say so
So what to buy without a pump? All the signs in the sky say so
I cannot answer this question. To do this honestly, I would also have to use a heat pump dryer.
If, however, my (without the heat pump) broke, I will buy the next one without the heat pump. I will be looking for one very much. Very! Except what can break in mine? Driver - that's a problem and probably costs. The same as in any other dryer or washing machine. Although my driver is very simple. What can be damaged in the dryer without the heat pump? Engine? A heating spiral like in a farelka? One drive belt? Steel drum? One bearing? It looks as simple as the proverbial flail. See what it looks like inside: http://jackiewiczowie.blogspot.com/2014/04/suszarka-kondensacyjna-do-ubran.html Don't pay attention to the fact that I silenced her. I modify and tune everything that I can get my hands on. There I have ... so that you know what I did with the washing machine ...
As for drying in the summer ... This year I did not even install a balcony dryer (the suspended one). Clothes are very soft to take out of the clothes dryer. They are simply pleasant to the touch, fluffy ... Do you know hotel towels and bathrobes? In addition, it is so convenient that putting wet and heavy things in the bowl, taking them out and hanging them - we do not want to. Drying in a dryer is too cheap to tire. As for the temperature, see the results of the temperature, humidity and noise measurements here: http://jackiewiczowie.blogspot.com/2014/04/suszarka-kondensacyjna-do-ubran-jaka.html The temperature in the bathroom rose by 0.3 degrees Celsius. The bathroom door was open and the heat spread to the hall. What is the temperature rise ...
@fafiks I see several possibilities. Clogged heat exchangers, or there may be a refrigerant gas leak from the system, or there may be a problem with the humidity "sensor". I am not a household appliance technician and I cannot diagnose it remotely. Try to start a separate topic for help, maybe more people will get acquainted with this problem.
One more thing: when I skimmed the manual, I noticed the description of "calibration" of drying. There are three levels and you can programmatically increase the degree of dryness of clothes (maybe time? Or maybe the sensitivity of detecting moisture in clothes?). Somehow I sensed subcutaneously that the above-mentioned the correction mechanism is used so that the service can still correct any problems with drying under the warranty.
Ultimately, I bought a dryer without a pump, i.e. Bosch WTG 86400 PL for PLN 1777. After removing all filters and reviewing the construction, I understood what condensation is. The essence is a heat exchanger (something like a radiator in a car) to which hot humid air is blown from the drum, which is simultaneously cooled by air supplied directly from the room from the front grille. The temperature difference causes the hot air to condense the water.
So in a dryer with a pump, the condenser and the evaporator are probably in one part and they compensate each other and the effect is the condensation of moisture.
Regarding my conventional dryer, I came to the conclusion that the dryer efficiency depends on the efficiency of cold air supply to the inlet. Do you agree? I was surprised by the heating of the dryer side wall - around 50C or even more. I thought about building the dryer with a cupboard, but from what I can see, you need to ensure the evacuation of hot air. What do you think about it?
Hello everyone I came across this thread when considering buying a dryer, but since there were no energy consumption measurements, I had to use the data from the manufacturers. The choice fell on the Siemens IQ700 heat pump dryer, energy consumption according to the manufacturer, per 9 kg of laundry, 2.12 kWh, with a half load of 1.2 kWh. So it comes out to 0.235kWh per kg of dry laundry. My measurements. The laundry was washed in an older washing machine with spin class C.
Program
Weight of dry laundry [kg]
Spin speed [rpm]
Energy consumption [kWh]
Energy consumption per kilogram of laundry
mix
2
1000
0.7
0.35
Cotton
2.3
1000
1.1
0.47
Cotton
4.8
1000
1.4
0.297
mix
3.1
1000
1.1
0.354
Looking at these results with the old washing machine, the data given by the manufacturer is a bit beyond estimation. I probably washed something different than the manufacturer It can be said that the manufacturer gives the energy consumption for cotton spinning at 1000RPM 2.12 kWh and according to my calculations the dryer uses more energy.
In the meantime, there was one more change in the equipment: Drying data here, but the laundry was spun in the washing machine with spin class B.
Program
Weight of dry laundry [kg]
Spin speed [rpm]
Energy consumption [kWh]
Energy consumption per kilogram of laundry
Cotton
3.2
1200
0.8
0.25
mix
3
1200
0.7
0.233
mix
3
1200
0.7
0.233
cotton (towels)
3.5
1200
0.9
0.257
Cotton
4.7
1200
1
0.212
With such centrifugation, the energy consumption is in line with what the manufacturer wrote.
As for the videos posted by freebsd we have not managed to collect as much crap as is in this video, cleaning itself is not terrible and putting the filter in its place is not a problem . A little practice and after the pain, there is also a second filter that can be taken out and opened. The man in the video is, to put it mildly, not very efficient manually. In conclusion, I will not convince anyone which dryer is better with or without a pump. I hope the measurements will be useful to someone and that my dryer will last a long time.
So in a dryer with a pump, the condenser and the evaporator are probably in one part and they compensate each other and the effect is the condensation of moisture.
Yes, the first element cools and gets heat, which means that water vapor condenses on it. The second one uses the heat displaced earlier to reheat the air. It works in the same way as air conditioning or a refrigerator. There is the main problem in these elements. They are very densely finned, and because they contain refrigerant gas, they cannot be removed and cleaned.
Arbiter wrote:
Regarding my conventional dryer, I came to the conclusion that the dryer efficiency depends on the efficiency of cold air supply to the inlet. Do you agree?
According to I agree. I did not notice any difference in drying time between hot summer and, for example, already cool autumn (when the apartment heating is not turned on yet). Such a difference in drying time depending on the outside temperature is probably present, but it is so small that it is "inconspicuous".
Arbiter wrote:
Regarding my conventional dryer, I came to the conclusion that the dryer efficiency depends on the efficiency of cold air supply to the inlet. Do you agree?
I think so too The dryer probably draws cool air from the front, from the bottom, and gives off warm air from the back - that's how it is in mine
Arbiter wrote:
I was surprised by the heating of the dryer side wall - around 50C or even more. I thought about building the dryer with a cupboard, but from what I can see, you need to ensure the evacuation of hot air. What do you think about it?
I haven't even checked the sides of my dryer are warming up. On the one hand, mine is snuggled up to the washing machine, and on the other hand, it stands a centimeter from the wall. The key is to leave space behind. For me it is about 10 cm. This is where the hot air escapes and there is also a heater in the back of my model.
dzikus_ss wrote:
I came across this thread when considering buying a dryer, but since there were no energy consumption measurements, I had to use the data from the manufacturers. The choice fell on the Siemens IQ700 heat pump dryer, energy consumption according to the manufacturer, per 9 kg of laundry, 2.12 kWh, with a half load of 1.2 kWh. So it comes out to 0.235kWh per kg of dry laundry. My measurements. The laundry was washed in an older washing machine with spin class C. Program Weight of dry laundry [kg] Spin speed [rpm] Energy consumption [kWh] Energy consumption per kilogram of laundry mix 2 1000 0.7 0.35 cotton 2.3 1000 1.1 0.4782608696 cotton 4.8 1000 1.4 0.2916666667 mix 3.1 1000 1.1 0.3548387097
Looking at these results with the old washing machine, the data given by the manufacturer is a bit beyond estimation. I probably washed something different than the manufacturer It can be said that the manufacturer gives the energy consumption for cotton spinning at 1000RPM 2.12 kWh and according to my calculations the dryer uses more energy.
In the meantime, there was one more change in the equipment: Drying data here, but the laundry was spun in the washing machine with spin class B.
Program Weight of dry laundry [kg] Spin speed [rpm] Energy consumption [kWh] Energy consumption per kilogram of laundry cotton 3.2 1200 0.8 0.25 mix 3 1200 0.7 0.2333333333 mix 3 1200 0.7 0.2333333333 cotton (towels) 3.5 1200 0.9 0.2571428571 cotton 4.7 1200 1 0.2127659574
With such centrifugation, the energy consumption is in line with what the manufacturer wrote.
@dzikus_ss I am sincerely grateful that you have made such measurements. Finally, I have a comparison. Thanks! Please write how long have you been using your dryer?
I have been using the dryer for 3 weeks. In order to realistically compare the consumption of both types of dryers, we must somehow standardize the measurements. We can also repeat such an experiment in a year or two and see if anything changes in energy consumption. It will be for posterity.
I was wondering how to standardize the measurements. Too many variables. The type of materials, the amount of material by volume and its weight, and the weight depends on the humidity. Water hardness. Centrifugation repeatability. I came to the conclusion that I would obtain the averaging by increasing the number of measurements of the energy used. Otherwise, identical items should be washed and dried at the same time on two dryers. Difficult to carry out :-)
Either way, I am very glad that you posted your measurements. Thank you again.
I would love to see the results of your measurements for a year. This could give information on whether the heat exchangers are clogging or if it is a real problem.
I think that the weight of the dry laundry could be some indicator. It is known that we wash and dry various things, but somehow the average will be good for both types. I am also curious what the wear will look like after a year of use and if the problem is the clogging of the exchanger. So far, I noticed that when emptying the container with water after drying, dust "fluff" appeared, i.e. the same cleaning of the exchanger spits something out there, time will tell if it is effective.
I use bosch serie 4 without a heat pump and I'm happy, I haven't noticed any huge bill and I do 3-4 washing and drying cycles a week (the difference may be from 50 PLN to 2) the exchanger is easy to clean they say that once a year, but after 4 months I checked and rinsed it properly, nothing happens, quiet and nice dryer
Certainly, in Bosch without a pump, cleaning the exchanger is a piece of cake. I am actually happy with this dryer, although we dry about half of the laundry. If possible, we dry it on a hanger, and if necessary, we use an electric dryer. Because the laundry does not come out so fragrant. And yet there is a lot of lint, so clothes wear out
I dry practically everything in the dryer and it does not smell like straight from the washing machine, but the German liquid takes care of the topic. As for the hair, I am not sure if these clothes are more damaged, but everything is carefully collected. after the washing machine itself, it all remains on the clothes
According to my dryer does not damage my clothes. On the contrary. A few stretched T-shirts or sweaters have gained a new life. The fluff is collected by the filter in the dryer, but the filter in the washing machine does not require cleaning. Smell of clothes from the dryer? This is some? Maybe it's an unclean washing machine problem? We prefer to tumble dry everything because things are soft and fluffy - such as towels.
Well, clothes come out of the dryer without any smell. And from the washing machine after rinsing with liquid and air drying, clothes smell.
Regarding shredding - I don't see them damaged, but logically if I dry blue blouses and collect a handful of blue fluff after drying, my clothes have less material. If repeated an appropriate number of times, the debris will dematerialize.
There are some scented wipes that can be added to the dryer. We do not use - why use additional chemicals.
As for dematerialisation, I agree Quite logical conclusion. However, I see it the way that I do not have these lint in the washing machine filter. I don't clean the washing machine filter anymore - I open it, check it, it's clean and that's it.
So my theory is that the dryer blows and collects these lint. Previously, they were rinsed through the washing machine. So I see it in such a way that these lint must come off the clothes, the question is where. Have you seen the weight of these fluff on my website? I can get over a gram of drying.
The theory is that the dryer will take it, the washing machine will not take it, I don't know if it's in order. If the dryer flies after the washing machine, the washing machine does not know not to take the lint because the dryer will take it soon, only doing what is standard.
In any case, I do not clean the filter in the washing machine. maybe once in 3 years. I mean, an old washing machine, because now I have a new Serie 8 Bosch washing machine and a Serie 6 dryer.
However, I see it the way that I do not have these lint in the washing machine filter. I don't clean the washing machine filter anymore - I open it, check it, it's clean and that's it.
I do not know what filter you have in the washing machine, but as far as I know, something that is at least the size of a button, coins, etc. may stay on it, and not lint or hair, so this conclusion is a bit pointless.
In addition, washing is done first and then it is dried, so either way the washing machine will pick up something first.
Looking into the filter of the washing machine after a few years of its operation, this filter was always clean from the above-mentioned. things. Of course, there was some goo on the walls and an unpleasant smell, but that's the norm.
Thank you hihihihi I made a lot of different measurements for people who are considering buying a dryer, because you can read many myths about it on the Internet. Reading some entries, I have the impression that they are writing them: - People who don't have a clothes dryer. - People who repeat the myths they read before but want to flash. - Traders wishing to sell specific equipment.
Jericho24 wrote:
I do not know what filter you have in the washing machine, but as far as I know, something that is at least the size of a button, coins, etc. may stay on it, and not lint or hair, so this conclusion is a bit pointless.
I think there is this filter with very large mesh in all washing machines. The limescale and probably the remnants of powders mixed with the remnants of clothes get stuck on it. So have a look at your washing machine filter before writing anything about it.
***
As for the order of washing and drying. Look at it more broadly. Something rubs off the clothes, tears off - as he called it. When rubbed in the washing machine, whatever is less sticky is removed from the clothes. What if the dryer removes these loose fluff better than in the washing machine? Then, considering more than one use-wash-drying cycle, can it be assumed that the fluff is removed in the dryer, not in the washing machine? I made my conclusion based on my observations. It doesn't have to be real at all, but at the moment no one has introduced me better. Let me remind you that I still say that the dryer does not damage clothes in a visible way.
I think there is this filter with very large mesh in all washing machines. The limescale and probably the remnants of powders mixed with the remnants of clothes get stuck on it. So have a look at your washing machine filter before writing anything about it.
I used to look at up to 5 washing machines. After unscrewing the bottom of the filter, I only saw the pump impeller and no other pull-out element.
I have a very unpleasant experience with the bosch ecologixx7 dryer. After several years of operation, it began to go crazy. It has to be cleaned every 2 or 3 months. The dryer switches off with the message: clean the filter. And the operation was carried out in accordance with all the rules set by the manufacturer. I don't know which one is reliable and which one is worth investing in.
I have a very unpleasant experience with the bosch ecologixx7 dryer
Give a specific model, because the series doesn't mean much. It's like saying that the Mercedes E-Class will rust to the power, and there was mostly only one such model
After 4 years, the drum broke - it simply fell apart.
How did it fall apart? I understand that a pebble or something like that could have got into the drum and "damaged it a bit", but for it to fall apart? I would like to ask for a more in-depth description of the topic or some photos.
I have a question, are those people who recently bought dryers satisfied? How about the drying performance? I will be grateful for any info, because I have to choose.] Link [/url] [/ tex]
we rarely use it, more often we dry it on dryers for hanging. The advantage of an electric dryer is, for example, when drying towels - they are as soft as in a hotel and not as sharp as sandpaper. The downside - after drying, the laundry does not smell of softeners and is odorless. say 1/10 of the laundry is tumble dried. The hardware itself is ok, it hasn't broken down yet
The discussion revolves around the comparison between Bosch's heat pump dryer model WTW85460PL and conventional condensing dryers. Users express concerns about the reliability and maintenance of heat pump dryers, citing high repair costs and potential breakdowns. Many recommend traditional condensing dryers for their simplicity and lower failure rates. The Bosch WTG86400PL is frequently mentioned as a reliable alternative. Users highlight the importance of energy efficiency, drying quality, and the impact of drying temperatures on clothing longevity. The conversation also touches on the practicality of self-cleaning condensers and the overall user experience with various brands and models. Summary generated by the language model.
The dryer probably draws cool air from the front, from the bottom, and gives off warm air from the back - that's how it is in mine
