Which ball valve control to choose for an alarm system?

Question

I have a question about the type of shut-off valve control. I want to control the valve in such a way that it closes the water when the alarm is armed and opens it when the alarm is disarmed. The alarm control panel controls a relay module which has NO, COM, NC contacts. And now my question -...

Gagatek77 · Accepted Answer

Hi. Use a valve with a three point control - N wire, and 2x L, one for closing and the other for opening. Such a valve needs power only for the time of opening/closing. Two-line valves in one position draw current all the time. At a friend's place such a valve was installed and it heated up a lot and drew a lot of current (12W of power has to be dissipated somewhere, and thus the valve in the open position was very warm, even though it was for continuous operation. NO - normally open - power to close NC - normally closed - power to open Both of the above-mentioned types do not have limit switches. Theoretically only valves with three supply lines have limiters which disconnect the valve drive when closing/opening, but it also depends on the design because they may have a clutch and therefore the supply must be given for a certain time.

Gagatek77 · Accepted Answer

. A normal solenoid valve in one of the positions - closed/open depending on whether it is no/nc draws current all the time.

Gagatek77 · Accepted Answer

Of course, 7W is not much, but first of all, if you count it up, it's almost 50 zlotys a year, secondly, it's some small valve, at the entrance to the house you usually have 1 and 1/4 inches, and such a valve is already drawing 12W. In any case, a constantly operating valve is not the best solution.

karolark · Answer

If it has to be on-off, isn't it simpler to use a simple solenoid valve?

karolark · Answer

Well, and this is supposed to be a disadvantage? This is a power in the order of 5-7VA

jajen · Answer

Thanks. My guess has been confirmed.

Gagatek77 · Answer

Select the valve model to suit your needs. Price does not always go hand in hand with quality. Perhaps you have come across a faulty unit? Buy from an established stationary shop/wholesaler so that you have somewhere to complain if something goes wrong.

karolark · Answer

Just have a colleague count the difference in ball valve control and its price and the cost of the solenoid valve .

Gagatek77 · Answer

. Then what is more reliable? A valve that operates 12 hours a day or one that operates twice a day - closing / opening?

kood · Answer

To control the water shut-off by the control panel if you don't want problems I would suggest a ball valve on 12V DC rather than 230V AC.

Gagatek77 · Answer

. A 12V valve will unnecessarily draw current from the control panel battery if there is a mains power failure. Great, only the author wrote that it failed him rather quickly.... I don't deny that the two-wire ones are bad, but I would use one that has two stable positions for shutting off and closing, additionally such a valve has the possibility of manual closing / opening in case of power failure. Besides, there is always something that heats up (and heats up a lot, because you can't keep your hand on an operating valve), which is a place of potential failure. It's great that a colleague has installed so many of these, please let me know what models the author proposes to use. In my opinion, it is important for the author to know the pros and cons (advantages and disadvantages) of using different types of valves. In the case of a failure of the water installation behind the valve and in the absence of power supply (bvo water flew on the socket, etc., the differential and another avria - well, that's a bummer), you can give up installing the valve, because it will not work anyway. Such a false sense of security. When applying a given solution, various cases must be considered and what sense does it make to use one valve or another at this point in time.

kood · Answer

Not unnecessarily, but in order for such a valve to make sense and not be a dummy, it must be solved in such a way that the battery capacity is properly selected. A 230V valve will not work and perform its function in the event of a mains voltage failure unless you use a UPS, but this is rather pointless for the valve itself. There are 2 possibilities: if the alarm is armed and the customer has no water, the second worse possibility is that the customer has no electricity, the alarm is armed, the valve does not close and the flat is flooded. Such a ball valve draws current only during operation, operating time 20 seconds, current consumption 1A, to draw 1Ah from the battery you need 150 cycles.

Gagatek77 · Answer

. So you expand and complicate everything, UPS, large batteries etc.... Mate don't go down this route, as you are only pointlessly complicating a system that could be simple and reliable. You will increase the price of a super valve several times over by using a UPS or a large battery in a system which must already have a suitable buffer power supply ... This approach to the spree is a failure. I hope that colleagues with more experience than those who have spoken here will confirm the validity of simplifying and thus increasing reliability.

kood · Answer

I'm not complicating anything, you put in a valve on 12V you do a power balance and this is probably enough in an average system because 1A drawn for several seconds when arming and disarming the alarm will have practically no effect on the battery life of the alarm. If you already put an electro-valve and connect it to the system, it should perform its function.

Gagatek77 · Answer

Which valve are you talking about? Bistable or monostable No or NC? Because let's start from the fact that I don't think such things should be controlled from the power supply of an SSWiN system anyway.

kood · Answer

such as:

.

This one has a closing time of 10 seconds and draws 500mA current during this time.
I would connect limit contacts to the control panel inputs in order to detect when the valve does not close when it should and for the system to inform the user if the valve does not close when it should.
I have already had the case of servicing an alarm where there was a solenoid valve and the premises flooded when the alarm was armed. I don't know if my predecessor who installed this system was held responsible, but he certainly lost the customer.

Gagatek77 wrote:
and yes I think that such things should not be controlled from the power supply of an SSWiN system.

.
Can you elaborate on what you see wrong with feeding the valve from the SSWiN? Because we are about to find out that electric door openers or relays controlling e.g. lighting should not be connected to the SSWiN either.

Gagatek77 · Answer

I mean the valve to be powered from the control panel battery, the valve proposed by a colleague fits in with the solution proposed by me, except that I would control it from the control panel as much as possible but I would not power it from the control panel but from an independent circuit, and here a valve powered from 230V and control on 3 wires (N and 2x L - close/open) would suffice. Limiters as they are will come in handy. And don't be ironic mate @kood .

kood wrote:
Can you elaborate on what you see wrong with feeding the valve from the SSWiN? Because we are about to learn that door openers or relays controlling e.g. lighting should not be connected to the SSWiN either.

Just try to read with understanding. The power supply is not from the SSWiN system, but the control from it is.

kood · Answer

. And how do you solve a situation where there is no power whether during arming or disarming? Do you explain to the customer that if there is no power he will have no water, or that if a pipe bursts he will be flooded because the system will not work? . Justify what is wrong with feeding the valve from the control panel.

synology1 · Answer

I have been using this solenoid valve for lawn watering for a long time and have installed it for my friends as well. There are no problems, of course, there is information about opening and closing from the control unit and also a manual mode.
https://youtu.be/rIieXQqkfHk

Gagatek77 · Answer

Mate you really can't read with understanding, well I'm explaining again that control from the control panel and power not from its circuit and this does not preclude the use of a buffer power supply with battery. I hope you understand this now. You can control and power as you wish. Everyone is making suggestions to solve the problem. The other thing is that it all depends on the customer, because if he wants to use an emergency power supply for the valve, he can even use a generator, his business. By the way, how many times have you had to deal with this besides the described case of flooding? Another thing is that due to the fact that plumbers are often - no disrespect to them - not very clever guys (seriously, no offence) at the time of any repair or something like that, they can make a real mess whether it's in the electrical system or other, repairing/reconstructing the hydraulic system. That's why I'd be afraid of connecting to a power supply from a rather important and sensitive alarm system to such errors. If I had a small buffer power supply, even one with a 1.2Ah battery, I could rest assured that nothing would be damaged. And please accept this as my opinion and do not catch me by the word to have an idle discussion anymore. Because practically everything has already been written. Interesting solution with the valve from the film, question if you can get it in our country because according to me only with Chinese friends, but the price of 18 dollars is tempting. The question is how about the failure rate. Please state which valve models you use, then it is also easier to discuss the proposed solutions.

synology1 · Answer

valves to choose from on olx for £160 each I have seen such a quick link .

kood · Answer

. Now you're turning the cartoon on its head: first you write that the solenoid valve on 12V is bad and that it should be on 230V, that's where the discussion started, now you're proposing a buffer power supply, probably a valve on 12V. . With what ? With solenoid valves? Quite often customers for alarms or building automation, after having been offered such a solution and having been shown how it works, want to have such protection, some in combination with flood detectors, others, like the author of the topic, controlled by the alarm system's sensing. I had a case where someone was flooded despite the fact that someone had previously set up such a system in the facility. And it was just such a case as the solution proposed by you, among others, with a valve which has no emergency power supply. That's why, in order for someone not to create a dummy, I wrote that it's better to give the valve a 12V power supply from the control panel, then the system is maximally simplified and reliable.

jajen · Answer

But the topic has exploded. So nice.

I solved the problem like this. I gave a valve with N-controlled and 2x L- closed/open limiters (something like the one in the links above). Control from the control panel, supply to the valve from 230V. I have no or only occasional power shortages (2-3 per year). Secondly, I find it hard to believe that such a coincidence would cause the water system to fail just when there is no power. I would have to be very unlucky. Just in case, I've made a bypass with a manual valve so that I can run the water in the event of a power failure or a problem with the control panel. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

Gagatek77 · Answer

Now you're turning the cartoon on its head: first you write that the solenoid valve on 12 V is bad and that it should be connected to 230 V, that's where the discussion started, now you're proposing a buffer power supply, probably a valve on 12 V. . Buddy, at the very beginning we were writing about valves for 230V, powered from the mains, and about such valves which during operation draw current in the closed/open state (not during closing/opening) depending on the power supply version. And such valves consume from, say, 7W to several watts during operation. With a monostable NC or NO valve on 12 V or 230 V there is no point in using such a valve, because during operation it would consume power all the time, thus generating costs and possible damage. Bistable valves, whether on 12 or 230V, need power supply only for the time of change of state from closed to open and vice versa. What do you not understand here? I have been writing all the time that the control of such a valve from the alarm is possible, but in the 12V version I would give a buffer power supply to not overload the system and to increase reliability. I hope my colleague finally understands this.

kood · Answer

Why are you explaining this to me again, I understand it perfectly, and I have been writing from the beginning about a valve that only draws current when it is working, nowhere did I write that I meant another one. I'm just trying to explain to you that a 230V valve doesn't make sense because of the emergency power supply in the absence of main power. It is not the case that a water system failure should occur when there is no electricity, it could be that a water system failure will cause an electrical system failure because, as you know, electricity and water do not like each other, and then you know. If you are doing it for yourself, you can do it, and if something happens, you bear the risk, but if you are doing it professionally for money, you should think about it a bit more.

jajen · Answer

Apparently so, but in practice this won't occur because once the alarm is armed (and at the point of arming it I can see if I have a flooded house or not) it doesn't matter if there is electricity or not and what triggers the outage because the valve is closed and lack of electricity won't change that. So I guess it's a bit of an academic discussion. The only time there might be a problem is if a valve fails to close during a set-up due to a failure of the valve itself, but that could be the case with any valve and a 12v buffer won't change that.

kood · Answer

. I don't know what kind of house you have and what you see and what you don't see when arming the alarm, I just warned of a situation I encountered also these are not theoretical considerations. . therefore I am in favour of feeding the signal from the limiters to the inputs of the control panel and installing flooding detectors which are configured in a separate zone and resetting the alarm from these detectors with a different password than the one used to arm the alarm and of course notifying the phone if flooding is detected. Then you know about the damage to the valve beforehand, if a pipe bursts the detector detects flooding it closes the electro-valve and does not open it until you consciously enter the password to cancel the flooding alarm. And you don't have to shut off the water in the building every time the alarm is armed, so you can set the washing machine or dishwasher before you leave.

merchel · Answer

. Fellow kood , which exact ball valves with limiters are you using ? I have had a cursory look and it looks like the 7-wire valves have additional limit switches. The 3-wire ones also have one you would have to connect to after unscrewing the valve. I would like to confirm the actual position of the valve to Satel's Integra control panel, because as you yourself rightly pointed out that giving an open or close signal is not always equivalent to its execution. I intend to connect wired flood detectors to the control panel and use them to control the ball valve, additionally also when arming the alarm. For the time being, I have bought the ball valve alone , because temporarily they do not have a 7-wire version Delivery is expected in 3 weeks. Then I will buy the control unit itself.

Which ball valve control to choose for an alarm system?

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