How to choose a NC or NO water shut-off valve for the INTEGRA control panel?

Question

Hello I am planning to install a water shut-off valve in a house. Valve closure triggered by flood sensors, control from INTEGRA control panel via INT-IORS. Which type of valve is better to use? NC or NO? With NC, during normal operation (no flooding), the coil must be powered all the time. No...

adversus · Accepted Answer

. Firstly 2 valves and the price goes up times 2. Pointless complication, and it takes energy all the time. It's not a mobile phone charger that draws 0.5W only a few or even a dozen watts. Give your colleagues a break with all kinds of NO and NC valves. Only a valve with an electric actuator (closes and opens). It has all the advantages over NO and NC: - draws power only during operation (depending on the model 10-30s), - can be switched on and off manually - does not heat up (all valves with a solenoid heat up a lot, unfortunately) - very low operating costs in contrast to NO and NC (such valves consume at least 5-10W, which, when converted into consumption per year of operation, already gives measurable zlotys) Valves with an actuator have AC and DC power supply, and are available at various voltages, i.e. 12V, 24V and 230V. In general, there is a wide range to choose from. Control is also quite simple because the valves have limiters, so they stop by themselves in the closed or open position. When I install them with an alarm system, I set them so that when the system is completely on (no one is home) or the flood sensor is triggered, the valve closes the water. Simple and effective NC and NO valves are not used because they have too many disadvantages. Examples of valves that I have been using successfully for years:

prosiak_wej · Answer

Safety first principle - I would choose NC. After all, such a coil is not five kilowatts that will hit you in the pocket. And bypass is a matter of two elbows and a ball valve, so not billions of gold coins either.

chudy_b · Answer

I understand that all coils for NC valves are designed for continuous operation. Is there no risk of overheating? I don't have to pay attention to any special markings?

bhtom · Answer

Welcome, I understand that you are planning a coil for 230V AC and not 12V DC powered from the system...? Greetings.

chudy_b · Answer

Yes, rather 230V. I don't want to overload the power supply of the alarm.

e-sparks · Answer

You do not need a valve, but a valve with actuator, 3 or 4 wire. As much as possible it can be for 12 volts, powered from the control panel, 3-6 watts is not a problem, especially as the current draw is only for max. 10 seconds, and closing the valve is a priority even before an alarm action. E.g. something like this:

chudy_b · Answer

. And could you elaborate a little on the subject. Justify it somehow? I haven't delved into the control yet, but there's probably a separate power supply and a separate control cable. It won't work either way on a power loss unless it's actually wired to the alarm and pulls on the battery. Which just happens to be no problem with a short run time.

Grzegorz_madera · Answer

This valve closes for a maximum of 30 seconds, so you only need energy from the control panel battery.

Aleksander_01 · Answer

. After all, by giving NO and NC valves mounted in series your problem ceases to exist. Strange that no one has come up with such a trivial solution before.

kood · Answer

Can a colleague elaborate on this thought? Which problem ceases to exist?

PROXIMA sj · Answer

If you want to build a system on Satel, the obvious solution is a wired ball valve controlled by a 12V electric motor, e.g. as shown by e-sparks. I also recommend watching how a motorised ball valve works, e.g. in a PROXIMA radio anti-flooding system. There are several videos on Youtube on this subject E.g. Regards PROXIMILIAN

vodiczka · Answer

(Subject author) No water, no problem .

PROXIMA sj · Answer

You are pastoring a colleague wittily.... And for what? P.

Aleksander_01 · Answer

You are afraid of being flooded if there is no power, this is how I understood your question in the first post. Using NC and NO valves connected in series, the water will be automatically cut off in the event of power failure. Is this so difficult to understand? If you still do not understand I am willing to draw a wiring diagram with a comprehensive commentary on how the circuit works.

kood · Answer

. And wouldn't it be the same with just an NC valve? Other than that, it's more a case of making sure that the lack of power doesn't affect the water in the building, and that in the absence of power the system works.

chudy_b · Answer

I hope this is not about me. I'm immune to that kind of electrode vibe. If you are referring to my first post, I am referring to finding the better of two solutions. Not the more stupid solution. You admit that fitting two valves in series in a domestic non-industrial installation is silly, right? And the discussion of whether it will work is purely academic and not needed in this topic. A ball valve with separate control of each direction is interesting. I will certainly consider it.

Aleksander_01 · Answer

. Since the author is at home non-stop he can always turn off the water with the valve, and the automation is useful when the house is unattended, and then whether there is electricity or not it is certain that the house will not flood.

bhtom · Answer

Welcome, . After all, with this solution the water will never flow.... Well, unless I don't understand something.... Greetings.

vodiczka · Answer

This is about colleague Alexander. With one NC valve there will also be an automatic shut-off as correctly noted by colleague kood. And correctly. I wrote earlier that when the subject author has no water then there is also no problem whether it will flood or not.

Aleksander_01 · Answer

Indeed, that NO at all unnecessary here, I've been overthinking something. . But I was overshadowed, and after all I wasn't drinking, sorry. The NO valve is unnecessary, but the water will flow, after all, it does not have to be controlled.

chudy_b · Answer

. Well dookay:-) You want to drone on about it, let's drone on about it. The water will flow. As long as we control these valves properly. NO unpowered, NC powered and water flows. Alarm - one changes state and water cut off. NO power - NC closes, house cut off and bypass has to be turned.... Hmmm... why NO then? It occurs to me that it is useless in such a configuration.

Aleksander_01 · Answer

At my mother's house, water enters the basement. I dealt with it this way - I dug a hole about 70 cm deep, a hole about 50x50 cm. I put an ordinary float-operated pump into this hole. It's been quiet for some years now. I directed the water from the pump into the sewage system. Advantages - simplicity, cheap, reliable. I also have a new house from 2013 and all I have of these 'water trinkets' is a pressure regulator and a 10-inch filter. And by the way, what people don't invent.

adversus · Answer

How does this relate to the topic ??? We're not talking about water in the basement just flood protection. By the way, in this 2013 house you will also be putting in a shut-off valve after the first flooding from a faulty toilet hose or sink/sink tap. Another disadvantage of NO and NC valves is that, unfortunately, not all of them are designed for continuous operation (precisely because of the heating of the coil) and it is worth to read in the technical data what is given as the time of operation and break in order not to damage the valve.

Aleksander_01 · Answer

. So far nothing like this has happened in my mum's house (built in 60 years), I lived in a block of flats for 16 years nothing has broken either for me or my neighbours either, but.....when replacing the valve for the cistern the hose disintegrated in my hands and nothing dripped when pressurised. It's just the mines that annoy me. You actually have to think about these 'mines'.

chudy_b · Answer

. And yet. Something felt it wasn't that simple. . I first distributed the alarm wiring by routing the wires out to the flood detectors. And then I assembled almost all the faucets flush-mounted. There is no danger of flooding from the Geberits either, because the hose is inside the reservoir. However, some spots with hoses on top remain. So I will see the project through to the end. A fitter friend told me that a hose burst on his customer's holiday. Water poured into the basement and filled it up to the ceiling.

tmf · Answer

. A matter of valve selection. Besides, the current needed to turn it on is much greater than the current needed to sustain it. Therefore, it is sufficient to give a nominal current pulse at the beginning that will turn the solenoid valve on, and then reduce the current so as to sustain the on state. This will have the effect of reducing the power and any heating of the solenoid. Also note whether the valve is suitable for DC power - if not, it may heat up when DC power is applied. In my opinion an NC valve is better - something goes wrong (e.g. no power) then the valve is in a safe, closed position. . Yes, it's just that such a valve with an actuator will not close without external automation. And the author is concerned with adding protection, not the ability to control the flow....

adversus · Answer

Of course you have to select the valve, but price also plays an important role, and in the case of a DC or AC valve it will always only heat more or less, which is why the manufacturer always informs you of the maximum operating time in the on position. The fact that it heats up when the voltage is lowered (yes, less, but always) is normal, I know, because I have dealt with this problem more than once, because somewhere these few watts of power have to be lost. Another issue is why to heat the air and waste energy pointlessly, and the complication of a system triggering the valve to work with reduced voltage, which in the case of AC is already quite difficult to implement. In the case of a valve with a motor, it has limit switches, so in the simplest case, a relay switching the direction of operation is enough (1 output in the control panel) . . The author of the topic has a control unit which takes care of the automation function for the valve with the motor, so this argument is pointless, especially as it is possible to implement automatic water shut-off when no one is home (even greater minimisation of the risk of flooding). Generally Having an Integra this is quite simple to implement, I described it a few posts above how it works when I install such protection for customers.

tmf · Answer

. Usually the current required for sustaining is many times lower, so correspondingly the losses will also be lower. Alternatively, you could use bistable valves, which only require a current pulse to change state, but do not require power to maintain state. However, IMHO such a solution undermines the author's main objective - protection. As for the price - you have to reckon with the cost anyway - packing cheap components, unsuitable for the operating conditions, as protection, not only does not protect anything, but even increases the risk,. . You can, but IMHO the protection should be as faultless as possible. An NC valve in the absence of control will simply close, cutting off the flow. The valve with actuator will stay in its current position - i.e. nothing will be protected. Relying on the alarm system to correctly control such a valve is, in my opinion, a mistake. See, for example, dishwashers - there the shut-off valve is not controlled by the dishwasher electronics either, but a simple hose failure protection is used. The author mentions in the first post that the valve is to be controlled by flood sensors - I would focus on the implementation of this as it is not trivial.

kood · Answer

Can a colleague justify this somehow? Because with such a solution I would be more concerned about the quality of the valve itself or its location (I had a situation where a pipe shot out in front of the solenoid valve and water filled the basement). . On the Integra it is quite simple, dedicated sensors connected to the control panel, the valve connected to a suitably programmed output, and I make deletion of signalling on this output with a separate password so that the user consciously deletes it and not by accident.

How to choose a NC or NO water shut-off valve for the INTEGRA control panel?

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