How do I get the effect (sensor) to warn of flooding in the basement?

Question

Hello, I'm looking for some sort of standalone solution for warning of flooding in the basement. There would be at least 3 detectors - one next to the water meter, another in the boiler room and a third in yet another room in the basement. I am keen for the alarm to be very loud - it needs to be...

Rysiek2 · Answer

Do you have an alarm system there, if so what kind?

ewoo · Answer

SALUS WLS600

Robinson74 · Answer

. I seem to have wires out in many places, but an alarm system is more of a future song. Although I do have one on offer: . ewoo , thanks for the suggestion. . Will 3 such sensors work with such a single gateway?

ewoo · Answer

. The manufacturer's website states that the UGE600 gateway can work with 100 devices simultaneously. I don't have it but like you I've been looking and Salus seems pretty reliable to me despite the hefty price tag. They have been producing various controllers for years and every now and then they introduce something new to the range. I once contacted the service about problems with wireless thermostats and everything was sorted out as it needed to be. There are also cheaper offers on alle type in flood sensor.

Robinson74 · Answer

I'm wondering if it will be possible to connect other detectors to this gateway - chatter, natural gas, smoke ....
It would be nice if I could receive possible emergency notifications from all these detectors.

suworow · Answer

Re1. You have a colleague's quote for an " alarm" rather than an alarm system.
Re2. How are you going to derive a loud warning alarm from this SALUS WLS600?
Or is it just time to slowly complete the alarm system and attach flood detectors to it. Alternatively/optionally, there could be a GSM transmitter alone with an alarm system function. The EBS PX200NB, for example, can be used for this purpose. It will allow you to wire the detectors as well as the siren.

Robinson74 · Answer

Perhaps it is just an alarm. Unfortunately I don't know anything about it at the moment. At the beginning of the build I didn't think about an alarm at all. So better a boob than nothing.

.
What would you suggest changing in this bid for an alarm and what about that flood sensor? Doesn't it have a loud warning alarm?
Perhaps something from Satel?
Does the EBS PX200NB require any additional phone subscription if it is a GSM transmitter? I would add that I do not require SMS notifications if this is a much more expensive feature than another way of notification via wi-fi.

And is this also just an alarm?
Or something better?

suworow · Answer

Further alert . There are advertisements at the top of the page and within them are tutorials/highlighted topics. One of them on the alarm system: Something more is difficult to say without knowing anything about the facility. But that is not, after all, the subject of this discussion. Just for quick reference: 1.no keypad or sirens. 2. PBX in GPRS version, which is slowly going out of use 3. maximum expansion of the PBX to 16 lines, of which we already have 10. So 6 more and that's it. I can see that a colleague is going in the right direction when it comes to flood and gas notification. Basing this on the toys proposed earlier was not very sensible.... ps. a colleague asked about the expander. The board of the chosen control panel has 8 inputs. The expander is used to expand it with further inputs needed to connect detectors.

Robinson74 · Answer

So would it be better to switch to INTEGRA?

But again, I will ask about the possibility of wireless communication with the control panel.
The 5 motion detectors are wired appropriately, but the gas, smoke and flooding detectors are not wired and are unlikely to be wired, so I would like to know how these detectors can be communicated with the control panel wirelessly using an intermediary device.

And the second question.
Does such a control panel, which notifies events by SMS, require some kind of additional subscription to a mobile network? I would rather avoid this.

PS. I will try to read into your tutorial on Elektroda today or tomorrow.

PS 2. The siren is e.g. SATEL SPL-2030 R , and the keypad is MANIPULATOR SATEL INT-KLCD-GR ? And probably a rechargeable battery for that.

Added after 2 [hours] 55 [minutes]: .

Surely that's even better?

suworow · Answer

The ACu 280 controller is used to connect wireless detectors to the panel and the ACX 210 module is used to connect wired detectors wirelessly.
In order to send text messages, you must have a sim card. In any case, a colleague has such a module in the specification and it even has card slots. Via the internet, the ETHM1+ module will notify you, but this method of communication is less reliable, as we have written about here many times.
Stop throwing in yet another quote and maybe write whether you have at least one cable in the basement or whether you can get down there with a single cable, e.g. from some detector? Let's first determine exactly what we have at our disposal, what possibilities we have, and then let's choose solutions.

Robinson74 · Answer

OK, thanks for your help so far.

When laying the electrical system, the electrician suggested distributing the cables for a potential alarm system, but not in the basement, as we didn't come up with that idea at the time.
At the moment, I have 10 cables run to where the control panel would be (garage). 5 of these cables are probably for the motion sensors, 2 cables are probably the sirens, another 2 are located at the bottom of the door jambs of the two garage doors. If I remember correctly, this is something related to signalling that the door is not closed. And there is one last cable. Could this be a keypad?
This is the situation.

Now, unfortunately, I'm going to want some additional sensors, but I don't want to run any more cables because I'm after plastering:
- - - - - - - Chad sensor
- natural gas sensor
- 2-3 flood detectors
- 2 smoke detectors
As I think about it, for this I would use some version of INTEGRA in the ABAX 2 system and for this an ACU-280.

Do I understand correctly that wired detectors (e.g. DG-1 ME) can be used, but then you need an additional ACX-210? Does this mean that I would need such an ACX-210 for every wired sensor I am missing a wire for? It's a good thing that this is probably the only one sensor Satel doesn't have in a wireless version.

.

freebsd · Answer

. I have temperature/smoke and flood sensors at my home connected to an Integra 128-WRL alarm - it's a few years old now . SMS notifications. Twice the system woke us up warning us of flooding. I have set up keypad beeps in the house. You might still be interested in a smart home system called Tuya. It supports sensors for flooding, smoke, chad or methane. These sensors, however, I do not have installed. Also, my intuition tells me to trust the sensors, e.g. methane, from Satel more, but the Tuya system itself is cool. At current camera prices you might still consider installing one in your basement. Then you verify the alarm by seeing what is happening from anywhere on the ground .

bhtom · Answer

Welcome, . But probably not the one you have in the quote.... Unless most of the system is going to be wireless. And yes with the rest of it, it's worth considering buying the higher model because of more I/O useful for creating later logic. Not to mention the higher performance of the power supply. . It's already a relic these days. Greetings.

Robinson74 · Answer

bhtom , then what kind of Integra do you suggest? A 128-WRL costs over £1,000 and it's already a vintage? . I'll admit that I think I'd prefer no-cost email notifications rather than a GSM subscription. Although I wouldn't completely rule out SMS.

bhtom · Answer

Welcome, Any other, from 64 upwards, with an Abax 2 module and an LTE phone-based notification module. . Another frugalist has found himself... Installing an SSWiN system is not a 'pay, install and forget' rule, there has to be some cost.... Greetings.

Robinson74 · Answer

OK, you are right. I withdraw from ETHM-1 Plus . However, GSM will be more reliable than email. By the way, are there any advantages to having two modules? That is, GSM and ETHM? I think I already know something: In that case, we enter Integra 64 and ABAX2 . And as for the communication module, instead of INT-GSM it is better to give INT-GSM LTE ? I still have a question. One of the offerings includes a module ACX-210 . I do not understand its use. Is this perhaps a component to connect to the detector Gazex DK-24.A ? Quote from Montersi.co.uk: . So what is needed for such functionality? A twisted pair cable from the DVR to the INT-TSI? Or from the INT-TSI to the switch in the teletechnical cabinet? Are any special features required on the DVR? This quote seems to confirm the need to connect to a switch: . Added after 9 [hours]: . Well. The same vendor has updated the quotation based on my comments, thanks to my discernment of the subject, among others on Elektroda. Now better?

GanzConrad · Answer

. I have installed several such systems and I suggest you rethink the subject. If only because the flood detectors are not loud, besides they are in the basement, so you have to spend extra money on some central siren, which will be pointless anyway if the flooding happens while you are on holiday/away. For the money for the siren you can buy something like this (z-wave only - cost around £200): you install it almost on each valve and connect the configuration with all flood sensors. From my side I can recommend Fibaro - wireless, so you do not have to worry about cables, neither now nor in the future - all sensors are available, - besides, fully configurable automation, notifications, etc., - possibility to expand the system - in the future (or already - you have to check) the possibility to connect to the insurance assistance in the bank (I think it's pko - I don't remember)

Robinson74 · Answer

. OK, such a thing as that. If you don't have to replace the valves in the system, but only put this device on the jumper, then I'm all for it. However, I have already decided on an Integra control panel and flood sensors from Satel. Will this or a similar device work with the Integra? There are also similar things on Polish sites: Tuya WiFi SNT173 controller - on Allegro Intelligent NOUS L3 WiFi valve controller cat. no. 1455591 - Media Markt

GanzConrad · Answer

. Unfortunately you will have to look for something that can be controlled by the Integra. I use z-wave hardware and have no experience with others. I suspect that the integra can only control the equipment by wire (NO/NC), so in this case I would opt for replacing the valve with a solenoid valve, as these are uniquely controllable by contacts. Think about this integration, because if it is as I write, i.e. control only by wire, you will cut off the way to development by using thousands of devices controlled via WiFi (and other wireless) and I am talking about control by sending POST commands, etc.

Rysiek2 · Answer

. In what way does this cut off the path for a colleague? It is just the opposite. If you decide to use WI-FI control (i.e. no wiring), then you are cutting off the way to wired controlled devices, which are probably a little more numerous than those controlled via Wi-Fi. You can use wireless solutions at any stage and by choosing not to use them now, you are not cutting yourself off for the future.

GanzConrad · Answer

. I point out that I don't know the capabilities of the integra and I assumed that it only has the ability to control devices by shorting the NO/NC outputs. If it has ETH and can communicate with any device on the local network, in addition to having some kind of programming interface to parse a web page or send commands, mqtt messages is another matter. It is not, because you are able to equip almost any wireless module (e.g. WiFi based on ESP) with a relay and in some even use an ADC and read any value from almost any sensor. All the time I'm just talking about the limitations of integrations - correct me if I'm wrong. Likewise with inputs - in addition to short/close inputs, does it also have the ability to hook up, for example, a temperature or light intensity sensor?

Rysiek2 · Answer

. Well that's where the problem lies, mate. . And what's next? Mate, you have a reinforced concrete basement where no wifisryfi can be seen or heard and you can connect 40 ESPs and to each one a relay and a transmitter and still d.pa. Back to the subject. You run cables from the distribution board to the control point. You also run (redundant) cables from the control panel to the distribution board. When you have connected everything together, you will find out whether wireless control via Wi-Fi or wired control via Ethernet is optimal, or alternatively both, or something else. The old rule of thumb is: if you can lay cables, lay cables, and do not save money, because you can do it wirelessly. These savings are illusory and will always come back to haunt you at some stage. Lay a power installation, e.g. 3x2.5 and a control installation, e.g. 4x2x0.5.

GanzConrad · Answer

. Lynx, you've become viciously pointless. Also, you have failed to notice that I am not waging a system war here, just trying to anticipate the limitations of integration itself. In the meantime, please respond again: . In addition : - humidity sensor? - changing the brightness of the lighting (incandescent or LED)? not just on/off - air purity sensor? . then you put in a switch with wifi, or a repeater for a couple of zloty.... I have z-wave modules in the basement (flood sensor and solenoid valve control) and the control panel 2 floors up - between them 2 reinforced concrete ceilings and the whole basement is also reinforced concrete, everything works.... part is taken care of by the mesh topology, but the single reinforced concrete does not interfere with communication. Robinson74, with systems like this it's like with cars: one needs a smart, another a sprinter .

kood · Answer

. The problem is that these toys can be used to control, for example, lighting (and even this would have to be done wisely so that it could be switched on manually) the only consequence then is that you would have to go to the switch and turn on the light, not something that is supposed to protect your property and maybe even your life or health. Because how will it behave if there is no electricity/internet? What happens if a neighbour or even you put up some device in your house that is badly designed or broken will siphon off the frequency on which these modules communicate? This switch with wifi I understand is about the access point, what if it crashes? Getting something to work is only half the battle, the other half is to anticipate and make it work sometimes in extreme situations.

Rysiek2 · Answer

. Don't put a baby in my belly . You're trying to promote solutions that I don't recommend and that's that. I have had too many bad experiences with wireless communication and if I must use such then only as dedicated, professional systems (usually duplicated). If you are in the telecommunications business (which would be obvious from what you have written about yourself), you know how much such solutions cost. Unfortunately, you represent a different approach. You're probably quite a network expert but this is the security department. Colleague @kood described it a bit. Security systems are built to be reliable. What you are proposing is pure amateurism that does not guarantee any security.

GanzConrad · Answer

. Lynx, the topic is about the flooding sensor. I propose a solution to this on z-wave: that is, flood sensor + solenoid valve actuator dedicated to z-wave. I don't know if you are aware, but the z-wave topology allows you to configure an association, that is, a relationship between an alarm and the execution of that alarm, and you write this association directly into the modules. This means, more or less, that with a little bit of thinking you are able to bypass the control panel, so if the control panel fails - the protection continues to work. As far as I know, the integration cannot do this . Apart from that, the reliability of the wireless communication is implemented through a mesh topology, i.e. every module powered by the network is also a repeater. As I mentioned : I have 3 floors of reinforced concrete, a PBX since 2017 and I don't remember communication problems. The flood sensor from a well-known manufacturer on the F (not to lobby) has in addition to the basic functionality: - a temperature sensor - an accelerometer that alerts when kicking or swimming - is unsinkable - it has the ability to operate on 2 power supplies simultaneously: the battery operates when the mains supply fails - potential-free output contacts for connecting any system, including satellites. - possibility of connecting external probes - tamper-proof You may not believe me, but the system works reliably. You are right about building security systems: satellites are certified, whereas almost any smart home system must, from a legal point of view, be treated as a gadget. But the advantage of some smart home systems cannot be overestimated: their versatility and flexibility to expand. Consider, on the other hand, that often similar or the same electronics sit inside these systems: the same gel batteries, the same inverters and the same capacitors (not always better), so security certifications will not give you a guarantee of reliability at the same time. The best example of this is the telecoms industry, which I have been in for over 20 years and make my living from, and where MTBF: is counted in the millions, and yet a lot of people make a living from servicing. I personally go two ways: if I can, I lay cables and still add for the future, but I can't imagine not being able to mount a sensor or actuator anywhere, in 5 minutes and without pulling cables, furrowing, etc. Added after 5 [minutes]: . . Forgive me, but these are fairy tales. Throughout my career I have only looked for interferers on licensed bands and have never encountered the case you describe. If someone puts a router on a microwave that's their business.... Besides, in wireless communications, protocols protect for missed communications, repeats, collisions, queues etc etc etc.

Robinson74 · Answer

GanzConrad , Integra also operates wirelessly based on the ABAX 2 module - a wireless system controller in the 868 MHz band. And I do indeed have reinforced concrete basement walls. . Where I did manage to do this I ran the wiring, i.e. reed switches, PIR detectors, keypad, siren. But we forgot about the flood, gas, chad, smoke detectors. And these will already be wireless. If such a valve actuator can work in my system, I would be happy to consider using it - on the water valve and on the gas valve.

Rysiek2 · Answer

. It is standard to lay 6 or 8 conductor cables so definitely redundant. This allows the use of spare wires in just such situations. . And you are doing very well. I operate in a similar way, but I absolutely do not treat these solutions as equals. Where security and stability of operation are at stake, I never use Wi-Fi.

kood · Answer

I'll tell you another tale, last week I had a video intercom monitor with wifi, more specifically a VTH5221DW which, connected on the first floor of a house, made the remote controls that normally open the gate from a distance of 100m work in such a way that you practically had to put the remote control to the aerial to open the gate.

How do I get the effect (sensor) to warn of flooding in the basement?

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