Cable repair in the wall for years - that is, roast me electrode :)

kortyleski wrote:

polaklbn wrote:

Wago has the smallest contact area, yet it is the best way to make connections in low voltage installations

It is not the best. It is one of the easiest ways.

polaklbn wrote:

And what do you think is the best way?

I join the question. My friend @kortyleski Could you give me which one do you think is better?

lukiiiii wrote:

by wikipedia:
substance; specific conductivity

copper 58.6 10 ^ 6
Sn 63% Pb 37% approx. 6.9 ? 10 ^ 6

These are Megasimens per meter anyway, which is less than 1 microohm.

I meant more about the scale of the phenomenon, copper is about an order of magnitude better. But the truth is that with such connections (currents in the home installation), as you wrote, it does not matter, unless we are repairing the wire in the Large Hadron Collider or at the space station ...

polaklbn wrote:

Somehow I cannot imagine performing comprehensive measurements in a single-family building, in which the wires have been soldered together.

Maybe you can't imagine, and how do you know that when signing, for example, a bathroom measurement protocol, the wires under the tiles are not soldered?
Often, when renovating bathrooms, it is necessary to move the power socket and just twisting, soldering is used on the cable.

Do you have special instruments for testing, for example, with the wave reflection method, as for measuring high voltage cables? Or just a question to the owner, you soldered the cables, if so, I have to tear off the tiles, disconnect / as you write / and check.

2P wrote:

\ From getting to know gas soldering irons, I don't want to look at transformers anymore. I do not know a more convenient solution (in field conditions).

What is the soldering iron model? I'm just going to buy it myself, but I don't know which one yet.

lukiiiii wrote:

My 3 cents for discussion:

by wikipedia:
substance; specific conductivity

copper 58.6 10 ^ 6
Sn 63% Pb 37% approx. 6.9 ? 10 ^ 6

It turns out that this tin is not so perfect, but ... at home in 2006, I made such a connection in the place of the liquidated kitchen socket. This circuit fed the entire kitchen. This place was then tiled too. In 2013, during the renovation, I took a close look at this connection, even cutting it with pliers to see the cross-section. Nothing happened there.

Low resistance comes from twisted veins copper - the area of this twist is higher than 2.5mm2 - in addition, the twist is soldered, so solder additionally improves conductivity (even though solder itself has a worse conductivity). Brazing stabilizes the contact mechanically and chemically copper that the tin oxidizes at the surface has no effect on the contact of the copper wires inside the solder. It can be said that solder chemically protects the copper surface from oxidation. Soldered wires cannot be used in clamps because the tin is malleable and slowly "yields" and the clamp loosens.

Oxidation of the tin ... You might be right, but for oxidation you need access to the tin of oxygen. And where is it supposed to get there in this case? First of all, the heat-shrink tubing on the vein is a good insulation in itself, and the author added another - with GLUE! Air access can be bypassed.
Contact surface - this has already been explained, but I would like to remind you that many amplifiers from the 70s used to connect wires on pins with a square cross-section - something like in the ancient times in telecommunications cabinets - on a swivel - such a connection withstood (and withstands) often high currents and functions (with air access!) to this day.
When you measure, you won't even notice the slightest difference between a continuous wire and one connected in this way. I guarantee.
The author, in my opinion, did the repair too well, and sticking to each of the imaginary possible dangers is beating foam.

Hello .., I do not want to comment on connecting the wires, which is better because it depends on the situation and I have different ways to do it, but to the point, if I read, quote:

"Cables should not be soldered, but clamped with Wago connectors, or screwed with some screw connectors.
Tin Sn63Pb37 melts at 183 ° C, if you count how much the resistance has increased at this point, it will turn out that quite a small current is able to melt the connection. "

my hands are falling ... after all, a colleague described how he connected the 2.5? wires and not the coils in the electric heater .. and why only in such connectors :?:

And just out of curiosity, I would like to ask where the preventive tests of the insulation condition of cables with a voltage of up to 1 kV are done ??

I will describe my experience.
A single-core cable (multi-core), quite heavily loaded, usually the insulation on it is over 50 ° C, has been mechanically damaged. First, I made the connection of the working conductor as a dedicated crimp sleeve. Unfortunately, such a joint was so hot that after a week the sleeve burned through the restored insulation. The second time after tightening, I drilled a hole in the middle of the sleeve, heated it up with a burner and drank tin as much as possible. For the third year, the cable has been working tfu tfu without failures.

polaklbn wrote:

When measuring or locating a fault, of course, I unfold the Wago and unfasten it. Wago connections give me the ability to do this without damaging the veins.

I am afraid that you are not taking any measurements, nor are you an electrician. You write nonsense for the sake of writing. Please write, at what measurements are can connections opened? After how many 5-year measurement cycles will the cans run out of stock to re-twist correctly? How many times can the Wago be clipped / unfastened with impunity?
The solder connection of copper is absolutely correct, which some people will oxidize faster than such a connection - I also remind you that one of the ways to prevent copper oxidation is whitening the ends of the wires with tin. The best possible combination. The same with fluxes - the most commonly used are rosin fluxes - they do not cause oxidation and do not require neutralization after use. So, two sides of the thread and a PhD thesis, on the subject of simple wire connection ....

igabriel wrote:

out of curiosity, I will also ask where preventive tests of the condition of insulation of cables with a voltage of up to 1 kV are done ??

Wire insulation made of PVC with a voltage of 450V / 750V, ie typical installation wires in a "apartment", when measuring its resistance you measure with 1000VDC.

398216 Usunięty wrote:

something like in ancient times in telecommunications cabinets - on a swivel - such a connection withstood (and withstands) often high currents and functions (with air access!) to this day.
When you measure, you won't even notice the slightest difference between a continuous wire and one connected in this way. I guarantee.

Exactly, the only thing that causes corrosion is moisture, especially in combination with even a small current flowing. Twisted pair cables with air access have been operating for decades and thousands of kilometers to this day.

nuszek wrote:

polaklbn wrote:

Somehow I cannot imagine performing comprehensive measurements in a single-family building, in which the wires have been soldered together.

Maybe you can't imagine, and how do you know that when signing, for example, a bathroom measurement protocol, the wires under the tiles are not soldered?
Often, when renovating bathrooms, it is necessary to move the power socket and just twisting, soldering is used on the cable.

Do you have special instruments for testing, for example, with the wave reflection method, as for measuring high voltage cables? Or just a question to the owner, you soldered the cables, if so, I have to tear off the tiles, disconnect / as you write / and check.

Read my posts before you start writing in such a nonchalant manner in my direction.
I wrote clearly that this method of repair is one of the better solutions in such a situation.

Added after 5 [minutes]:

robokop wrote:

polaklbn wrote:

When measuring or locating a fault, of course, I unfold the Wago and unfasten it. Wago connections give me the ability to do this without damaging the veins.

I am afraid that you are not taking any measurements, nor are you an electrician. You write nonsense for the sake of writing. Please write, at what measurements are can connections opened? After how many 5-year measurement cycles will the cans run out of stock to re-twist correctly? How many times can the Wago be clipped / unfastened with impunity?
The solder connection of copper is absolutely correct, which some people will oxidize faster than such a connection - I also remind you that one of the ways to prevent copper oxidation is whitening the ends of the wires with tin. The best possible combination. The same with fluxes - the most commonly used are rosin fluxes - they do not cause oxidation and do not require neutralization after use. So, two sides of the thread and a PhD thesis, on the subject of simple wire connection ....

If you read the entire thread and all of my statements, not just the latter, I won't have to answer these questions. I wrote about when to disconnect the wires for measurements.

Wojtasson wrote:

The cables should not be soldered, but clamped with Wago connectors, or screwed with some screw connectors.
Tin Sn63Pb37 melts at 183 ° C, if you count how much the resistance has increased at this point, it will turn out that quite a small current can melt the connection.

As for the temperature of this junction, it's a very interesting theory. The tin should be set aside
I am ignoring the fact that tin plays a small role in this junction as a typical conductor.
As for screw terminals, well, I am not a professional electrician, I have seen little, but what I saw in cans when it comes to damage, it is just loosening screw terminals and sparking, burning the terminals, etc. For me, an unreliable connection. Of course, there are proper screws, proper washers etc, but not used in home cans
And the Wago connectors, uh, if I don't like them ... When I disconnect it, I don't know if it should be like that, but I am replacing it with a new one, because I am not sure if it connects well enough.
Wago is simply quick and safe to install. Is it good / best - I don't know.

Tomasz Downacki wrote:

@Jawi_P Here you go, you don't have to look far.
https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic2672889.html

So what? You take the sentence out of context because one person says it's "best" to replace a section of the cable. No way from where to. And he is "Janusz"?

Quote:

I soldered it at home and taped it with electrical tape and everything is fine. I think it's even better.

Is that ok, especially "better", better than the unbroken original cable? I suggest cutting it every 2 cm and soldering it
Ok, because the hair doesn't stand on end, it didn't kill anyone and the pigeons don't rub their orientation?
Of course it can be good, but whether it is so on the basis of insulating with "some" tape and plastering it is impossible to say immediately. May it be so.
Insulating tape in moisture and plaster absorbs moisture and, especially at elevated temperatures, can be very unstable. It crumbles, comes off, becomes very soft. It all depends on the tape, if someone wants to use it, it's okay, because that's what it is for, but also needs to know what the tape is and what it is for, not the first one better than a Chinese or a set of all colors from Castorama for PLN 2.50.
I have spent many years watching cables, working in a humid environment and sometimes insulated with tapes (telecommunication / ICT), after a few years it gets massacre, in a warm and humid room, and outside double.
There are good tapes, such as the HelaTape series from HellermannTyton, or self-amalgamating (self-amalgamating) tapes.
A good tape has a certificate of approval and a maturation period specified in the specification, e.g. the above-mentioned is 5 years. Who pays attention to it? Almost nobody.
And I have tapes in my garage myself, which lie for a few years, left over from stocks. And I am probably not the only one.

What is the description of the repair - in my opinion, well done and neatly. But for DIY constructions?

Jarzabek666 wrote:

The effect of dampness, it is a pity that the manufacturer guarantees ... a lot of such connectors I personally fired in my life, for me there is nothing more reliable than a twisted pair soldered in very difficult places.

What you presented in the photos is the PARTACT effect, not the effect of a bad connection.
Bunnies in terms of the installation. I will not assume here whether the person who made this connection unskilfully put the wires through glands, etc. etc.

The manufacturer of the guarantee for the operation of the couplings in a humid environment, which is indicated by the technical data sheet of the coupler that I have provided.

"very difficult places to access." - Find the fault later !

Jawi_P wrote:

But sculptures at once DIY constructions?

Dude, " sculptures "???
And it is an almost dry joint - 3M organized special courses, the completion of which allowed for connecting cables in lines in, for example, RWE.
The most laborious and technologically complex were the oil muffs, on "leaden"

Added after 2 [minutes]:

polaklbn wrote:

What you presented in the photos is the PARTACT effect, not the effect of a bad connection.
Bunnies in terms of the installation. I will not assume here whether the person who made this connection unskilfully put the wires through glands, etc. etc.

I never trusted these connectors, I only used them in low power lighting circuits. I just do not trust a thin, resilient leaf, in a tight casing, exposed to the influence of moisture.

robokop wrote:

Dude, "sculptures" ???

It's not mine, I don't know where you got it from

Jarzabek666 wrote:

polaklbn wrote:

What you presented in the photos is the PARTACT effect, not the effect of a bad connection.
Bunnies in terms of the installation.

polaklbn wrote:

The manufacturer of the guarantee for the operation of the fittings in a humid environment does not provide

Tell me if people use waco, do they measure humidity? Is it something I give, after all, in a year's time it may change dramatically because the manufacturer has special additions.

robokop wrote:

I only used them in low-power lighting circuits

A year ago, I installed a bactericidal lamp from a reputable company, I got tired of its operation, everything inside had a quick-disconnect device, although not waco, but similar built-in nothing, I could give a guarantee, but time was running out, she had to work in the doctor's office. So even a 30W fluorescent lamp has outgrown these leaves.

They may and may not do humidity measurements, but the wiring connections must be made in such a way that no moisture enters them. You know what moisture will do to the electrical tape on the "twisted pair" ?! Well, unless you cover the soldered areas with the repair coating in the cans ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjNUzd6LDsU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg6VPucscxI

polaklbn wrote:

They may and may not do humidity measurements, but the wiring connections must be made in such a way that no moisture enters

Are you kidding me? Moisture from the air will get anywhere.

polaklbn wrote:

You know what moisture will do to the electrical tape on the "twisted pair" ?!

Well, I'm curious what the air humidity is doing with this twisted-pair tape.

robokop wrote:

polaklbn wrote:

They may and may not do humidity measurements, but the wiring connections must be made in such a way that no moisture enters

Are you kidding me? Moisture from the air will get anywhere.

Imprecise. Moisture from the air is everywhere - sometimes it can be prevented from getting in, but it won't do any good, since it is also locked inside and waits for it to cool down to condense in the most inappropriate places - in this case, in the balance connectors. I think that there is no condensation inside the rooms (> 100% humidity) because it would mean that someone consciously sabotages their own living spaces. This moisture scourges the exterior of buildings.

Chris_W wrote:

Imprecise. Moisture from the air is everywhere - sometimes it can be prevented from getting in, but it won't do any good, since it's also locked inside and waiting for it to cool down to condense on the most inappropriate places

Well, I would say otherwise. In such an electric box there are temperature changes - related to heating the wires with flowing current and their subsequent cooling, and thus pushing and sucking fresh air into this box, with different water content - therefore the corrosion process can be moistened on an ongoing basis . In the case of Wago, it is not about the corrosiveness of the joint itself, but about a small contact surface. It is true that a colleague in the electrical department once wrote that he tested the connection with these connectors using thermovision and did not find excessive heating, but I still have a skeptical opinion about them.
Although I will say on the other hand, in my parents' house, where most of the installations remained in aluminum, the inspection of the cans where the wires were joined on these porcelain bases with steel clamps showed that the connections looked as good as new - with no signs of corrosion of either the steel or the aluminum cores. at most a light patina.

Personally, I am not convinced of soldering cables that can get hot. The repair done by the author seems to be very solid and will probably serve for years, although I would not do it at home. I am also against all connectors (possibly wrongly) in permanent installations. I wonder why the proposal of welding cables has not yet been made on both sides of the topic. Such a connection is practically indestructible (!) I know, because I have been at home for 10 years, and for 30 years in my father's case, the electricity is missing after the splices I mention this because I have already improved the "contact" installations for various electrics many times. In one friend's case, as soon as the oven turned it on, the smoke from the can flew (with time more and more). The occasional patching helped for a short time. When she found out that I could correct it, I did it my way - for 12 years without a bubble ... :)

And what does it look like at home? Well, like below:



Twisting, welding, T-shirt, silicone ...

Well, I haven't seen such a combination yet - congratulations for your fantasy. From today electricians have another needed gadget in their bag - a welder.

You write such crap that you don't want to read. Calculation of connection resistance, couplings, spells. The guest hit the can, twisted it, soldered and the ferment rose as in the Sejm. Twisted, insulated, it works. He thought about cutting in different places but forgot that he had x cm walls to break down.

Welding wires in the wall ... stretcher cramps I don't believe I wouldn't have had such an idea if I was sober.

Everything takes a second, and the welding machine is a small so-called safety transformer (that's what it used to be called) 24V. A carbon electrode on one cable, a standard clamp on the other (although a thicker piece of copper is enough to prevent the insulation from melting). The whole house flies in less than 15-20 minutes ... Great philosophy - I'm surprised you are great skeptics gentlemen electricians
Back when my father was rewinding motors, it was the best and most reliable method of connecting the windings!

Chris_W wrote:

Well, I haven't seen such a combination yet - congratulations for your fantasy. From today electricians have another needed gadget in their bag - a welder.

The method is as old as the world, most rewinding motors have connections made this way.
And about WAGO: As Pawlak said, "They invented these dumb machines, because they had no strength in their hands!"

In my opinion, the most optimal in many respects in home electrical installations is the twisted connection with orange connectors, which are produced for different wire cross sections.