Cable repair in the wall for years - that is, roast me electrode :)

Łukasz.K wrote:

In my opinion, the most optimal in many respects in home electrical installations is the twisted connection with orange connectors, which are produced for different wire cross sections.

I think WHITE are better

Smart idea with this welder. Hmm, but impractical by. me. Well, I'll stick to my opinion

And why impractical? Any specific reasons? ...

nuszek wrote:

Chris_W wrote:

Well, I haven't seen such a combination yet - congratulations for your fantasy. From today electricians have another needed gadget in their bag - a welder.

The method is as old as the world, most rewinding motors have connections made this way.
And about WAGO: As Pawlak said, "They invented these dumb machines, because they had no strength in their hands!"

The point is that everyone is going towards simplification and acceleration of assembly, and this method goes towards complications - it's good that there is such a variety of solutions, but I think that welding in installations is unlikely to be accepted
This Pawlak is probably not right - that's why people have the head not to use force and you can divide people into two categories: those with the head and those with strength.

The method doesn't have to catch on. It is simply an alternative. If someone wants a safe and reliable installation (like me, for example), the cables will be welded. Such a connection creates a uniform structure that is not sensitive to any factors that cause the standard clamp or soldering to fail over time - in my case, the main bus is in the floor where there is no chance to fix anything and only the taps to the points go up, so I have a minimum of cables in the walls I don't have to worry about when, for example, I drill a hole for a picture.

I've seen a bit but insulating 'piggyback' with silicone is never - I understand various patents but it is beyond my humble practice.
Until today I take an insulation resistance meter and measure this silicone insulation.

SylwekK, Your post # 55 went to the electrical department Welding of wires in the receiving installation

3 pages of discussion about how someone joined 6 wires into 3
The joint is like a muff, the contact surface on the twisted pair is quite sufficient, additionally tinned, it will surely provide protection against copper corrosion.
As for the method of joining, such a saying that the tin will melt under the influence of temperature, please look at the temperature at which PVC melts
Personally, I was at a show of wago products and they conducted an experiment there to show the strength of the cube connection.
They connected a 2.5mm2 wire about 10cm on each side to the dc power supply, the short-circuit current was about 150A, the insulation from the wire and the connector melted, but the contact still held firm despite cooling down.

JohnySpZOO wrote:

I've seen a bit, but insulating piggybacked with silicone is never ...

Normally, an ordinary T-shirt would be enough in a can, but as I mentioned, the installation is in the floor and the silicone is just in case from any moisture that could get in when pouring concrete into the ducts.

rozpedzony wrote:

They connected a 2.5mm2 wire about 10cm on each side to the dc power supply, the short-circuit current was about 150A, the insulation from the wire and the connector melted, but the contact still held firm despite cooling down.

Unfortunately, they cannot repeat this experience a few years after assembly ... A lot can happen during this time.

I read and I do not believe. I had to speak. The first post in the topic by. me done correctly. Personally, I would not cut the entire cable because the photo shows that one core was damaged, it was enough to recreate the insulation, maybe a core. On the other hand, Mr. SylwkaK's post is a typical tinker industry that has nothing to do with electricity, in addition, the tone of the posts shows that you consider yourself an expert. After the photos you can see that it is a new installation in a facility and all joints are embedded in concrete. God save me from such experts.

Elclipse wrote:

On the other hand, Mr. SylwkaK's post is a typical tinker industry that has nothing to do with electricity, in addition, the tone of the posts shows that you consider yourself an expert.

"Knocking off" technology aside ...
Let's look here:



Do I see correctly that the green and yellow wire is "skryped" with the brown ones?
What the hell is this?
Does the "specialist" in twisting, soldering and welding know that the colors of the insulation of the conductors are determined depending on the destination? The green-yellow color is the most important.

PN-HD 308 S2: 2007 bows.

Well, as if there was no wave of hate had to finally arrive
I was captivated by the sentence:

Elclipse wrote:

On the other hand, Mr SylwekK's post is a typical tinker industry that has nothing to do with electrics,

It is interesting You are perhaps a connector seller, because I have seen many different installations, both good and worse, which were only bolted without welding and passed the acceptance without any problems, while others were connected with clamps / bolts / etc. made as for a 6-year-old and ... also passed the pickup.

I do not even intend to discuss with you, because I did not find any substantive fragment in your post. Give at least ONE disadvantage of welding wires that will stay in the concrete forever, you will be my interlocutor :)

Elclipse wrote:

in addition, the tone of the posts shows that you consider yourself an expert

I wonder where do I consider myself an expert ?? It's just that whenever I describe something, I do it on the basis of my (and often my father - who is an electrician) many years of experience in electrics and electronics. Show me where I am "buzzing" ...

Elclipse wrote:

After the photos you can see that it is a new installation in a facility and all joints are embedded in concrete

And if you read it more carefully and noticed that I mentioned an identical solution that has been with my father for 30 years and so far nothing indicates any degradation of it, so I did it in the same way in my house.

Elclipse wrote:

God save me from such experts.

Let me just say ... pity you for such a narrow view of electrics / physics.

zbich70 wrote:

Do I see correctly that the green and yellow wire is "skryped" with the brown ones?
What the hell is this?
Does the "specialist" in twisting, soldering and welding know that the colors of the insulation of the conductors are determined depending on the destination? The green-yellow color is the most important.

Without going into details, I have a very unusual installation, which uses, next to an ordinary 3-core cable, a few hundred meters of a single wire, which was much cheaper than a double one, and which in my solution worked much better, because I did not have to struggle in a box ( and gutters) with a trunk of cables with a total diameter of only 5 cm and having the possibility of individual control from the fuse of virtually every assembly point (socket / switch). The fact that some connections in the gutter are "non-colored" is simply using shorter waste sections to connect the internal points in the gutter (and I have a lot of them there). Well, for the hell I have to cut 0.5 m from the entire roll as there is 0.6 m of waste next to it. Nobody will ever look there again, and even if someone insists and chucks concrete to prove something to me, you can immediately see which points are connected with another cable, because they lie a short distance from each other.
As for the standards - three of them stick out in all socketsThe colors, as God's commanded blue / brown / yellow-green, so do not pick on such dupes, because they are the least important here.

Well ... These key phrases should do the trick:

SylwekK wrote:

I have very unusual done installation

several hundred meters of a single wire that was much cheaper

some connections are "non-colored", it is simply using shorter ones waste sections for connecting internal points

So you're doing the usual crap, bungling.
And to make matters worse, you also promote it as a model performance.

I wonder if you have a project signed by an authorized person for this "atypical" installation.

Read the whole thing, don't take it out of context.

zbich70 wrote:

Elclipse wrote:

On the other hand, Mr. SylwkaK's post is a typical tinker industry that has nothing to do with electricity, in addition, the tone of the posts shows that you consider yourself an expert.

"Knocking off" technology aside ...
Let's look here:



Do I see correctly that the green and yellow wire is "skryped" with the brown ones?
What the hell is this?
Does the "specialist" in twisting, soldering and welding know that the colors of the insulation of the conductors are determined depending on the destination? The green-yellow color is the most important.

I wonder what effect the acetic acid from the silicone with which the insulating jackets are filled will have on the long-term quality of the joints.

Mark II wrote:

I wonder what effect the acetic acid from the silicone with which the insulating jackets are filled will have on the long-term quality of the joints.

Rather zero for copper. But this acetic acid does not guarantee good insulation when exposed to moisture (it will increase the conductivity of the water). I am waiting for a colleague who was to measure the silicone insulation - it is worth knowing how it behaves under voltage

SylwekK wrote:

Read the whole thing, don't take it out of context.

And what is the obstacle to using RPK heat shrink tubing? They are adapted to insulate wires, and therefore their use is much faster and more convenient (and better): you cut off as much as you need and shrink it using a heat gun.

Your silicone says:
SECTION 1: IDENTIFICATION OF THE SUBSTANCE / MIXTURE AND OF THE COMPANY
1.1 Product identifier
Trade name: Universal silicone
1.2 Relevant identified uses of the substance or mixture and uses advised against:
Preparation for glazing windows, sealing window and door frames, exhibition windows, garden frames,
elements of the installation of ventilation, air-conditioning and cooling devices, etc.


Ventilation and cooling devices, garden frames have little to do with ISOLATING the voltage. I wonder how this silicone will behave under 1000VDC ...

Acetate silicone protects against moisture quite well. In order for acetic acid to work on copper, something must first oxidize it (e.g. a mixture of acetic acid with perhydrol), because this acid reacts with copper oxides, and what is its concentration there ... The release of this acid occurs during hardening, so it is not even a permanent action.

polaklbn wrote:

Ventilation and cooling devices, garden frames have little to do with ISOLATING the voltage. I wonder how this silicone will behave under 1000VDC ...

Well, silicone and all this insulation are just an addition against moisture, this gutter is not filled with water, and the joints are not lying on top of each other, because there is a lot of space there, as you can see. Of course you can take measurements, but what will it do? If this voltage appears there, then everything connected to the sockets will be suitable for the trash :)

And to the Czepials - before you write something again, read:

I can see here self-eyed electricians, installers, who cannot believe that there is anything other than a Wago connector or a cube with screws. Here is the usual clinging and (sorry for the phrase) doing shit "how to debunk the alternative way of connecting cables by welding". Instead of substantive talk about the advantages and disadvantages of such a connection, it is better to talk about colors, about qualification based on savings of hundreds of meters of cable no taking into account other aspects such as the convenience of laying this specific installation or a handful of wires instead of a copper roller despite full control over each point. How many of you did the installation in the floor with "clean" walls? If you do these installations for millionaires who buy kilometers of cable, praise them for it ... and you will earn! I have limited funds, but thanks to a slightly broader horizon of looking at certain details, I am often able to circumvent many problems in an unusual way, often controversial for someone who does something routine for many years after graduation and cannot imagine changes. And the changes are taking place ...

polaklbn wrote:

Ventilation and cooling devices, garden frames have little to do with ISOLATING the voltage. I wonder how this silicone will behave under 1000VDC ...

It will turn into antimatter and create a black hole. Silicone is silicone - if there are even wires in silicone insulation or insulating silicone sleeves. Is a moderator flying with us? Because it's probably time .....

SylwekK wrote:

Of course you can take measurements, but what will it do? If this voltage appears there, then everything connected to the sockets will be suitable for the trash

Before putting the installation into service, you are obliged to take measurements. And when doing them, this is the tension that should appear there.

I wouldn't twist my veins like that. Due to the fact that they are mechanically tired and can break. What I have found more than once in my life and who twists the cables knows. It would be better to just wrap them with a thin wire and solder or solder them stubbornly and without it. For each strand, heat shrink for the whole thing, and it's ready. Sooner the house will collapse or World War 3 than it will fall apart.

VAGO is not here because how to cram it and secure it later. It is nice and quick to assemble, but the screwed ones are not for constant removal.

You've probably drilled a few cables in your life :)

And possibly in various places, these connections do not make a roll.

SylwekK wrote:

Of course you can take measurements, but what will it do? If this voltage appears there, then everything connected to the sockets will be suitable for the trash

What will it do? It will give you sweetheart, but in the event of a power leak, the RCD will work and you will be rocked about the failure.

Chris_W wrote:

I am waiting for a colleague who was to measure the silicone insulation - it is worth knowing how it behaves under voltage

Here you go.
In the morning, samples of universal silicone were prepared for solidification - forcing the silicone into the mold under the pressure of the gun - mold diameter approx. 6-7 mm. At. 17 samples were frozen - a measuring electrode about 3 cm long was driven into the silicone sample, then the silicone with the electrode was inserted into the salt water solution, measuring the insulation resistance with the MIK-10k meter:
- Up = 250V, t = 1min. - 4 of 5 samples passed the measurement with the set time,
- Up = 500V, t = 1min. - on 5 samples, 2 passed the measurement with the set time,
- Up = 1,000V, t = 1min. - on 5 samples, 0 passed the measurement with the set time.
- Up = 10,000V, t = 1min. - on 3 samples, by applying only the electrodes, a breakthrough through the sample was visible.
PS When writing a measurement with a given time, I mean it withstood the given time value at a given voltage without automatically switching off and discharging the meter.
EVALUATION OF THE RESISTANCE VALUE OF THE UNIVERSAL SILICONE INSULATION - NEGATIVE, COMPARED TO THE INSULATION OF THE CABLES USED.
NOTES: The installation is not operational.

I did not take pictures with insulation resistance - I did not have time for it.

What, my friend SylwekK, will you say to it and how will you respond to it?

Poor with that silicone.

In telecommunications, a hydrophobic gel was used to fill the cable medium.
It occurs in popular telecommunications cables - which are now disappearing ...
It was produced somewhere in Silesia and it was cheap. It is washed with extractive gasoline.

It is nonsensical, however, to insist on repairing a cut cable only to repair the cut wires. The continuity of the cable sheath is also repaired.
Therefore, rather, installing the can and showing its place.

JohnySpZOO wrote:

EVALUATION OF THE RESISTANCE VALUE OF THE UNIVERSAL SILICONE INSULATION - NEGATIVE, COMPARED TO THE INSULATION OF THE CABLES USED.

You have made a very valuable experience. Thanks.
Although the result was easy to predict.
So a malpractice.
Yet "acetic" silicone is classified as corrosive to metals, and other clearly described non-corrosive silicones with a different bonding mechanism are commercially available. For example, neutral silicone, slightly more expensive than "acetic", not to mention the sealing compounds especially for electric-electronic purposes, although it is a much more expensive matter.

By the way, silicone as a protection against moisture (as a corrosion factor) is problematic at all because of its enormous (compared to other plastics) permeability to H2O gas.
Coming back to these unfortunate T-shirts, it seems to me that flooding them with even a "thermoglute" would be much more effective (eg if water got into the channels).

Seba_smd wrote:

What is the soldering iron model? I'm just going to buy it myself, but I don't know which one yet.

My equipment is quite old IRODA SOLDERPRO70. Still fired like a regular lighter with a ring. Grottoes are still available, the equipment itself is not too expensive.

paszczakq wrote:

It would be better to just wrap them with a thin wire and solder or solder them stubbornly and without it

Agreement with the wire. No reinforcement - no. A continuous current of 16 A will not desolder such a connection - I have no doubts about that. However, a short circuit and a surge current with just such soldering can cause such a connection to simply splash on all sides ... as if the T-shirt will hold it, but the connection will no longer have any parameters.

Let me remind you that the cable will be in the wall. Maybe a consensus that I applied too much and I could twist the cables a bit weaker. As I mentioned - twisting the cable in opposite directions is really quite difficult to do. The cables are much easier to twist, as shown in the photo of my colleague SylwekK on post # 55. But then it is much more difficult to recreate the insulation correctly. There is really no need to freak out here. The cable will be stiffened with plaster and nothing will happen to it anymore.

Elclipse wrote:

Personally, I would not cut the entire cable because the photo shows that one core was damaged, it was enough to recreate the insulation, maybe a core.

One strand about 3 cm long has lost more than half of its thickness. The second is only slightly sanded - but the insulation needs to be recreated. Only the protective vein was intact. I decided that it was easier to remove the cable from the box and replace it than to play with strapping and re-creating insulation with tape. Although here I found out about self-amalgamating tapes - maybe in such a case it would be a good substitute for a T-shirt.

Let's give up on these short-circuit currents. What values does such a current achieve in a residential installation, the more so when the building is far from the transformer. And for how long. More energy is lost in the arc at the "esa" contacts or the fuse link, than in the wire subject to the short circuit. Temperature increase with long-term load capacity? And who designs the installation in the house so that the conductor reaches the limit of 70 ° C (90 ° C even more)? After all, leaving aside other considerations, keeping the cable under a load leading to reaching such temperatures will quickly deposit dust on the wall along its route. And it's just suboptimal due to the voltage drops.
The KaW remark about recovering the coating is unfounded. It is not a 20kV cable, or anything that requires continuity of shielding or electric field control coatings in the cable insulation. How does assembly of the can relate to shell reconstruction? After all, in the discussed example, the insulation was recreated, the author described it exactly.
Please forgive me, I don't want anyone to be offended. But much of the discussion resembles the way advertising argues. In which usually some not very important detail is raised to the rank of an amazing value of the product.

JohnySpZOO wrote:

SylwekK wrote:

Of course you can take measurements, but what will it do? If this voltage appears there, then everything connected to the sockets will be suitable for the trash

What will it do? It will give you sweetheart, but in the event of a power leak, the RCD will work and you will be rocked about the failure.

Chris_W wrote:

I am waiting for a colleague who was to measure the silicone insulation - it is worth knowing how it behaves under voltage

Here you go.
In the morning, samples of universal silicone were prepared for solidification - forcing the silicone into the mold under the pressure of the gun - mold diameter approx. 6-7 mm. At. 17 samples were frozen - a measuring electrode about 3 cm long was driven into the silicone sample, then the silicone with the electrode was inserted into the salt water solution, measuring the insulation resistance with the MIK-10k meter:
- Up = 250V, t = 1min. - 4 of 5 samples passed the measurement with the set time,
- Up = 500V, t = 1min. - on 5 samples, 2 passed the measurement with the set time,
- Up = 1,000V, t = 1min. - on 5 samples, 0 passed the measurement with the set time.
- Up = 10,000V, t = 1min. - on 3 samples, by applying only the electrodes, a breakthrough through the sample was visible.
PS When writing a measurement with a given time, I mean it withstood the given time value at a given voltage without automatically switching off and discharging the meter.
EVALUATION OF THE RESISTANCE VALUE OF THE UNIVERSAL SILICONE INSULATION - NEGATIVE, COMPARED TO THE INSULATION OF THE CABLES USED.
NOTES: The installation is not operational.

I did not take pictures with insulation resistance - I did not have time for it.

What, my friend SylwekK, will you say to it and how will you respond to it?

Taking the above into account, the installation will not pass the acceptance measurements.

(please do not read my message if you have not followed the thread from the beginning - my post taken out of context may prove to be negative in relation to the repair done by the author of the topic - which I consider to be well done)

JohnySpZOO wrote:

Here you go.
In the morning, samples of universal silicone were prepared for solidification - forcing the silicone into the mold under the pressure of the gun - mold diameter approx. 6-7 mm. At. 17 samples were frozen ...

Maybe you had to wait at least the usual 24h to "fully" dry?

Anyway, universal silicone is a bad idea. It ages quite quickly. It changes the volume, it crumbles. This is clearly visible on the example of forgotten cartouches found in the workshop.

JohnySpZOO wrote:

In the morning, samples of universal silicone were prepared for solidification ...

What, my friend SylwekK, will you say to it and how will you respond to it?

Well, no stress I ignore the fact that the test conditions for measuring the resistance were made in extremely unfavorable conditions (interesting after all) and in order to get them, I would have to pour sea water under the floor while my installation was received without any problems, no leakage, etc. It should be noted, as I have already written several times here, that the distance between each T-shirt is significant and actually its insides are filled, so they even seem to touch each other (which there is absolutely no place for me) there is an additional layer in the form of ... a double jersey :)

Now, imagine a purely hypothetical situation that next to my house is identical to a twin installation only based on standard terminals (weight / screws / bushings / etc ...), and to both installations, however, somehow some water flowed into the cable gutters and here and there connections are under water. Question ... In which installation will the first fireworks start, the differentials will be blown up, etc. ??