Energy storage 18650 up to 24kWh class Paragon, Powerwall

remzibi wrote:

It is immediately apparent that you are still thinking about it,

.

Thought. Now I don't have to. But out of curiosity I'll turn on the webcam more than once while I'm away from home. Not only for the warehouse but also for other cameras on the property and in the company. I have even taken precautions in the event of an Internet service provider failure by having two independent fibre-optic lines from two operators connected to the server room, neither of which is physically connected to each other in the same teletechnical duct. Just in case.

remzibi wrote:

100% of humanity would like that, but unfortunately all the warehouses available today have very sophisticated monitoring and control systems, if it doesn't fit - you give up the warehouse, but your neighbour won't - so you can already start thinking about it all the time (if you have something with your head) .

I guess that's what the thermal protection built into the cell is for. The problem is that it doesn't really do its job in practice. Ideally, this protection should be in the form of a fusible link fuse, which blows if some temperature of the cell is exceeded and thus permanently excludes the cell from further operation. Then it would be almost maintenance-free. Almost, because once in, say, five years, it will be necessary to go in, check all the cells, discard the burned-out ones (they will be visible as cold on the thermal imaging camera) and insert others in their place.

pawciu-85 wrote:

remzibi wrote:

It is immediately apparent that you are still thinking about it,

.

..... But out of curiosity I'll turn the webcam on more than once while I'm out of the house......

I can understand that, I myself sometimes take a peek at the monitoring outside the home. But very rarely.

I would sleep soundly as if the whole wall was monitored 24/7 by thermal imaging with alarms.

cefaloid wrote:

,,Dear colleague let me tell you straight ....
... Sometimes with constructive, sometimes with hateful. How do you not know how to deal with such criticism.....

.

Yes, I expected all kinds of reactions, I was aware of the controversial nature of the issue and the potential uproariousness of the response. And this thread is indeed a testament to the diversity and exuberance , such times .
You can't bear to respond to the heebie-jeebies - then don't heebie-jeebies, and there will be no need to grieve and moan later .

cefaloid wrote:

......A returning your particular project and to:

remzibi wrote:

smiga wrote:

.....Finally, you could imagine one camera and some kind of system to move it (two motors - X, Y, like in a plotter).......

.
I've previously provided a link here with a prototype of such a solution, but I won't elaborate on it https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic2398928.html , which doesn't mean someone else can't pull it off

.

I hope this was ironic. In these days of cheap LFP cells, such solutions with moving thermal imaging are for me straight out of a McGyver movie. Is this written by a man who accuses others of "something with their head"? I will not comment.

.

Yes, it was irony , I wrote that I would not develop but way to go, but 12 years ago such a project allowed a few new things to be learned and as an educational value once landed on the electrode.
Why should you not comment? comment only in that thread , another thing is that this is a dig from 12 years ago, so these comments may look strange.

>>21281801 .
Well then you have gone a bit overboard. If you are using LFP cells then I don't see any point in such extensive monitoring and security measures.

speedy9 wrote:

Well, you've gone a bit overboard. If you are using LFP cells then I don't see any point in using such extensive monitoring and security.

.

I am blowing the whistle. Especially as I am expanding with more packs of 15 kWh successively. A further 32 units will be arriving in the next few days.

Welcome,

A huge amount of work Fact - these links are not that dangerous unless you drive a nail into them. If remzibi thinks he's embracing it - then I don't see a problem especially as he's described everything nicely. Personally, I would not choose to put any kind of storage in a residential building. He's not 'persuading' anyone to do so, he's just presenting a slice of his life. I see it as a 'can do' project. And the rest is standard electrode style....

I recommend packing such a structure into an external electrical box 10m from the house - usability is the same and safety is much greater, better to blow the whistle.

@daniel93 Exactly, if someone has the opportunity and a large plot of land it's better to keep everything out of the house

Batteries do not like to be charged in the cold. Only lead-acid can withstand this somehow. Alkaline and lithium-ion batteries have to be charged at positive temperatures. Such is the case. The outdoor box must be heated.
Lithium ion batteries can be discharged in the cold.

>>21283525 .

100/100! That is exactly what I would do, and I am not joking. It is a pity, often, to spend your life's achievements on such experiments.

Regards

On the subject of negative and positive prices per kWh.
The more we start saving, the faster the prices will rise.... The balance has to match.
This is from my observations...

efi222 wrote:

The more we start saving, the faster prices will rise.... The balance has to add up.

And the more we start to consume, the more prices should fall. The balance should work both ways, so it should be symmetrical.
It's now unclear whether installing solar panels and electricity storage is to the utilities' liking or not.

Added after 5 [minutes]:

LEDówki wrote:

Batteries do not like to be charged in the cold. Only lead-acid ones somehow tolerate it. Alkaline and lithium ion ones have to be charged at positive temperatures. Such is the case. The outdoor box must be heated.
Lithium ion batteries can be discharged in the cold.

Rechargeable batteries in general work less well in cold weather, have less capacity and deplete more quickly.

Added after 2 [minutes]:

cefaloid wrote:

And this is not just about the risk of fire. But even about the various gases that can be released from any energy bank in the house and when, for example, we are sleeping. If the storage facility is in a dedicated building - there is no problem.

It depends what the temperature is in that building. If it's an unheated outbuilding or garage, there's still a chance of maintaining a reasonably bearable temperature for the ac. And if it's a separate building, you'd have to do some heating during the lowest temperatures outside, so the cost of maintaining the storage goes up.

Added after 2 [hours] 12 [minutes]: .

@remzibi

remzibi wrote:

After 3 months of testing with half the capacity filled (estimated actual capacity at the moment around 12kWh, once full it will be over 24kWh), the whole thing is working sensationally 🙂 .

Let's assume that the storage has a capacity of 24kWh. Do I understand correctly that this means that with an averaged or continuous power consumption of 6000W, this storage can give energy for about 4 hours? I understand that, in general, it is the capacity expressed in kWh that is divided by the power consumption in kW and the approximate possible operating time from full charge is obtained.

Is it fair to say that the storage is the same as a UPS? As far as I understand it, both this storage (and any other similar) and a UPS work in such a way that when external energy is supplied, it is recharged, and when external energy disappears, it is the storage that powers the house.

What capacity (run time at similar power consumption) and price would a factory industrial UPS of similar dimensions to this storage unit have? I'm guessing that this storage unit came out much cheaper than a factory UPS with similar run time of similar power (or several UPSs connected in series) due to the use of recycled cells (and this is probably the most expensive part of the UPS and storage unit).

In my opinion, it makes no difference to either the UPS or the warehouse whether it is powered all the time with short interruptions due to a fault, or whether it is powered only during the daytime with a break at night if powered by PV.

efi222 wrote:

the more we start saving, the faster prices will rise.... The balance has to add up.

andrzejlisek wrote:

And the more we start to consume, the prices should fall. The balance should work both ways, so it should be symmetrical.

The problem in Poland is that the basis of our power industry is coal-fired units. They have to run all the time at a minimum of 10 GW, they cannot be switched off.
While it is fine during the day, because the rest is generated by RES, they have to be heated up to almost twice as much power for the evening, so that they are shut down again after midnight.
On Sundays and holidays we have such a surplus from RES that, despite the large exports (3-4 GW), wind farms or photovoltaic farms have to be switched off on sunny days.
On the first of November there was a 'negative' energy price because it was windy and there were no consumers.

BANANvanDYK wrote:

First of November there was a 'negative' energy price because it was windy and there were no consumers.

Sockets at graves and electric candles need to be made.

No, what is needed is a kind of management in which it will be PSE that decides on forced energy consumption or forced feed-in (generation).
There was a peak in energy consumption this morning, at 7 a.m. the price had reached 1,200 PLN/MWh, demand over 21 GW. Today we have very ugly weather, at my place still foggy and no wind. Currently generating almost 20 GW from thermal power, only 4 GW from PV. Already there is an announcement about the mandatory commissioning of all energy sources for this evening.

.
Such a small snapshot of the construction of my energy storage. Admittedly I'm using off-the-shelf components but there's plenty to do. The main thing is to plan it well.

My energy storage facilities are capacious. One is handy with a capacity of around 12 m³, the other is much larger at around 1,500 m³ and is virtually unused. It was only this year that I got a little busy so as not to mix energy carriers.

>>21292545 >>21292545 .

1500m³ ?
when unfolded you have a warehouse 1.5km long x 1m wide x 1m high ? is that some kind of farm ?

>>21292954 .

To get a better idea of how big it is, I counted the volume of the block of flats I live in (dimensions are estimates):
Height 15m
Width 10m
Length 100m
It came out to 15000m³, which means that 10 such farms or warehouses would "fit" in the block.

Let's look at it further: a flat in a block of flats is about 2.5m high, two flats stacked on top of each other is 5m. A 15000³ with a height of 5m would take up an area of 300m2², i.e. between 5 and 10 flats depending on the area of each flat.

Another example: a basketball court and thus the most common size of a school gym according to the internet is about 28x15 (there are several standards, but the differences are small). In such an area, 1500m³ will take up less than 4m, so by eye it will probably be 1/2 to 3/4 the height of a gymnasium.

I wonder what kind of capacity such a storage has, what kind of power it can give out, and how many average houses or flats can be powered from it for one 24-hour period without interruption. Or can it withstand powering the average hospital, where uninterruptible power supply is crucial? If one were to assume that the measure of a hospital's size is the number of patients admitted at the same time, I don't know what size a 'small hospital' is and what size a 'large hospital' is.

andrzejlisek wrote:

I wonder what capacity such storage has

.

The average density is about 130Wh / kg
using sand as an example, 1m³ is approximately 1.5 tonnes

1500x 1.5= 2250 tonnes
2250x1000=2250000kg
2250000x130= 292500000 Wh
292500000 /1000= 292500 kWh
292500 kWh / 1000 = 292.5 MWh


...and this handheld is a modest 2.34 MWh


Andrzej Sroka, spokesman for the Fryderyk Chopin Clinical Regional Hospital No. 1 in Rzeszów, informed us that this unit consumes approximately 410,000 kWh per month LINK .
It appears that the hospital will last less than a month.

airman wrote:

a spokesperson for the Frederic Chopin Clinical Regional Hospital No. 1 in Rzeszów, informed us that this unit consumes approximately 410 000 kWh per month

.
Nice - 410 MWh per month, nice nice nice....
Maybe they could use a small power station.

>>21293134 .

That is, about 800 MWh per two months, while I use an average of 350 to 400kWh per two months. Granted, there are times when the lights and computer are turned on unnecessarily, I'm not a saver and I don't look at power consumption when buying white goods, white goods and computer equipment. It simply has to serve and suit my needs.

The statement that the hospital uses as much as 2000 times my consumption is impressive. I wonder how many patients or how many patient rooms there are in it. Lamps, televisions in the halls and corridors, do consume electricity, but probably a similar amount as at home. So do electric kettles and fridges, of which there is one for several rooms.

It is well known that the ED and the emergency room operate 24 hours a day and the machines and equipment there consume electricity, as does the ICU, which has machines that run 24 hours a day. Apart from the ED and the ICU, it's unclear if anything else is absorbing huge amounts of electricity. It would be interesting to know what consumes so much, and how much greater this consumption would be compared to "domestic" consumption in the calculation that one patient room is one flat. Otherwise, if the energy consumption of one average dwelling were multiplied by the number of patient rooms in a hospital, I wonder how much would come out and how it compares with the consumption of the hospital.

andrzejlisek wrote:

does anything else absorb massive amounts of electricity

E.g. Central sterilisation room, all autoclaves on electricity.

andrzejlisek wrote:

while I use an average of 350 to 400kWh per two months.

.
That is, it comes out that you're running out of life to drain the energy contained in the storage from your fellow LEDs.

...the smaller one is not worth bothering with, you will only have enough for 1 year.

@remzibi I recently came across https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic4085569.html#21293726 , and we've written before about charging batteries. Suppose you just take apart another battery from an electric scooter and find most of the cells usable, do you also do voltage equalisation before connecting to the storage? Looking at the topic cited, it makes sense to connect through a resistor first, wait until the voltage is equalised and no current is flowing through the resistor, and then connect directly. Additionally, it clarified that any number of cells connected in parallel can be charged as if it were one big cell.

airman wrote:

...the smaller one is nothing to bother with, you will only have enough for 1 year.

.
It will be enough for a year of just unloading. However, if this storage facility were to be built beside a river, to which a whole field of solar panels and windmills would be added, the river would drive a waterwheel like those used to drive mills centuries ago, then you could rest assured that during the day or in a breeze you would be able to recharge faster, and also more slowly, because you would be driven by the current of the river. Well, and an unmanned power station was created that could probably power a few houses.

andrzejlisek wrote:

Well, an unmanned power station has been set up that could probably power a few houses.

The problem is that no one but the residents benefit from it.