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VU-dial indicator

elektronik.b 8631 94
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  • #62
    User removed account
    Level 1  
  • #63
    elektronik.b
    Level 3  
    bratHanki wrote:
    What kind of power supply do you have for your current dangle?


    regular 12v power supply

    Added after 5 [minutes]:

    Sanjose wrote:
    Why can't you use symmetrical voltage?


    Well, I can, but I already have a 12v socket on the back of the housing and I would not like to convert it to a 220v socket. I also have a small 2x9v transformer on the board + rectifier which gives the 12v symmetrical. But if it is not possible to convert the power supply to single ones, I will do it on this symmetrical power supply.
  • #64
    żarówka rtęciowa
    Level 37  
    elektronik.b wrote:
    bratHanki wrote:
    What kind of power supply do you have for your current dangle?


    Ordinary 12V power supply

    Added after 5 [minutes]:

    Sanjose wrote:
    Why can't you use symmetrical voltage?


    Well, I can, but I already have a 12V power supply socket on the back of the housing and I would not like to convert it to a 220V socket. I also have a small 2x 9V transformer on the board + rectifier which gives the 12V symmetrical. But if it is not possible to convert the power supply to single ones, I will do it on this symmetrical power supply.


    If it is a 12V transformer power supply alternating and such a voltage is supplied by a wire to the device, obtaining a symmetrical voltage is very simple, for a circuit that consumes a small current, it is enough to use a symmetrical rectifier in the Delon doubler system.

    VU-dial indicator
  • #65
    elektronik.b
    Level 3  
    Basically it is a 12v impulse power supply but I also have a transformer one so I can do something like that.

    Added after 3 [hours] 55 [minutes]:

    I still have a question, what should the diodes be? can be ordinary, e.g. 1N4001 and the capacitor values what?
  • #66
    Sanjose
    Level 29  
    Diodes are probably better 1N4007 and the capacitors are at least 100uF if not more.
  • #67
    398216 Usunięty
    Level 43  
    elektronik.b wrote:
    what diodes should they be? they can be ordinary, e.g. 1N4001
    Once again I refer to the diode datascheet. There you have exactly explained what the last number in the marking of these LEDs means - and thus you will know which LEDs will meet the requirements set for them.
    elektronik.b wrote:
    and what are the capacitor values?
    And this was also explained many times in the forum ... The general rule is that the power supply filter capacitor is the bigger the better. However, there is a "common sense" limitation - the current drawn from the power supply - the higher the current, the greater the capacity that should be used. What capacity? In simple terms, for 1A of current there should be a minimum of 1000uF in the filter capacitor.
    elektronik.b wrote:
    2x9v transformer on the board + rectifier which gives the 12v symmetrical.
    No load - let me remind you. Depending on the transformer's power (and thus its "stiffness"), the output voltage may decrease as the load increases - the more the load increases. That's one. And two? Two are the necessity to consider whether in our specific application such a simple power supply (diode bridge plus filtering capacitors) will be enough for us - when supplying, for example, a power amplifier, voltage "stiffness" does not matter that much, but the problem begins when we are dealing with amplification of small signals - here it may turn out that imperfect filtration (i.e. the ripple of the voltage supplying the voltage amplifier) affects the output signal from such an amplifier - and instead of the input signal itself (only the amplified signal), we have interference that effectively falsifies the course of the actual signal. (especially annoying in the case of Delon's power supply)
  • #68
    elektronik.b
    Level 3  
    The layout on TL084 is done. I made the schematic and design of the pcb in a kicad. I immediately used the power supply on the board, so it is enough to connect the 12v alternating voltage to the first terminal from the left. I think that now, when he puts these tiles in his indicators, they will indicate what is needed.

    VU-dial indicator VU-dial indicator VU-dial indicator VU-dial indicator VU-dial indicator


    Audio sweep test
  • #69
    398216 Usunięty
    Level 43  
    VU-dial indicator And this potentiometer is for what purpose?
    As for the PCB design - you still need to work on the neat placement of the components. Many elements could only be positioned slightly differently, and the connections would be less "broken" and (most importantly!) A lot shorter.
    Not that I want to fault - don't take it that way. I started with more or less the same errors, but I would like to point out the errors that, with a little commitment, you could easily correct. By the way, the PCB itself would be even smaller ...
  • #70
    elektronik.b
    Level 3  
    I will take this into account well in future projects. And this potentiometer was already in this diagram from practical electronics, so I put it.
  • #71
    398216 Usunięty
    Level 43  
    elektronik.b wrote:
    this potentiometer was already in this diagram from practical electronics so I put it.
    It's just that in such a connection as in the marked diagram it makes no sense - whether it is or not, the effect will be the same. Can you see why?
  • #72
    zgierzman
    Level 29  
    398216 Usunięty wrote:
    Can you see why?


    Exactly why?

    The diagram is illegible, but it looks to me to adjust the output impedance - from 4k7 to 14k7 ... Or 104k7, because in the original EP this potentiometer has 100k

    On Saturday night I redrawn it humanly and made a plate. 4 x 5 cm, but so big, because huge electrolytes take the surface ... 16 mils tracks, easily done with an iron ...

    And as I can see it is the fourth version, after the original from the EP, Olkus's version and the author of the thread :-)

    And does toto have a logarithmic characteristic? "I don't seem to", but I don't focus on it, it's time to sleep, after all, the weekend is there to rest. Maybe the feedback diodes break it a bit to make the nodding of the hands look more believable?

    VU-dial indicator

    VU-dial indicator
  • #73
    Olkus
    Level 25  
    zgierzman wrote:
    And as I can see it is the fourth version, after the original from the EP, Olkus's version and the author of the thread


    Such a simple layout and so many tiles have already been created for it :)
    Just the PCB with SMD elements is according to I am not reachable for the author of the topic, as long as the etching itself is not a problem, but soldering and starting it can be troublesome.
    Although small dimensions are not a doubtful advantage.

    This week I was going to make a tile according to my project, but some technical problems (defective thermal transfer foil) meant that I did not manage to do it.

    Regards,
    AND.
  • #74
    zgierzman
    Level 29  
    Olkus wrote:
    soldering can already be troublesome.


    Er, there SOP14 and 1206? I hit 50 and solder such things without a magnifying glass. For 0603 I have to remove optical equipment ... :-)
  • #75
    Olkus
    Level 25  
    zgierzman wrote:
    Olkus wrote:
    soldering can already be troublesome.


    Er, there SOP14 and 1206? I hit 50 and solder such things without a magnifying glass. For 0603 I have to remove optical equipment ... :-)


    I am younger and SMD soldering is not easy for me, it's small and my eyesight is average (Shaking hands do not help either :-? ).
    The author does not have much experience in soldering (just look at the quality of the solders on the boards :roll: ) and I'm afraid SMD would only get worse.

    Regards,
    AND.
  • #77
    Olkus
    Level 25  
    zgierzman wrote:
    The question of training. :-D


    I learned SMD soldering on disassembled boards (I blown the elements with a heat gun and soldered back), it's not that bad but I prefer THT ;)
    And SMD components are less durable.

    Regards,
    AND.
  • #78
    zgierzman
    Level 29  
    VU-dial indicator

    This is a fragment of my last DIY (I wonder if I should post it on the forum) ... And do it in THT - how much space do you want? I fit in the 10 x 10 cm format, but if I did in THT, probably 20 x 20 would not be enough ... Note that the resistors in the photo are 58 (say: fifty-eight) pieces. Apart from the six, which are not fully visible, at the very top of the photo. In addition, 19 capacitors and 11 integrated circuits. And the fragment shown is about 4 cm x 7 cm ...
    After the description "vacuum tubes, retro electronics" I guess you know what you see. In the 1980s, the Polish industry produced instruments on comparable elements and comparable functionality, which had dimensions of 35 cm x 25 cm x 10 cm, mine is 10 cm x 10 cm x 3 cm. The difference is in the THT / SMD technology.

    PS: I was about to go to sleep, and I pat on the forum, although midnight is past ...
  • #79
    Olkus
    Level 25  
    zgierzman wrote:
    This is an excerpt from my latest DIY (I wonder if I should post it on the forum


    I see no contraindications, as I see it, the performance is decent. I myself would love to see the rest of the structure ;)

    zgierzman wrote:
    And do it in THT - how much space do you need? I fit in the 10 x 10 cm format, but if I did in THT, probably 20 x 20 would not be enough ...


    If we care about dimensions, of course we have to go for SMD and double-sided printed circuit boards.
    But simple circuits (like the one in the topic), I think there is no point in complicating the life of SMD, especially when it comes to a beginner's circuit.

    zgierzman wrote:
    Note that the resistors in the photo are 58 (say: fifty-eight) pieces. Apart from the six, which are not fully visible, at the very top of the photo. In addition, 19 capacitors and 11 integrated circuits. And the fragment shown is about 4 cm x 7 cm ...


    It is true, there are a lot of elements and in THT, if you want to do it on one PCB, it would be a problem, because of large dimensions, but how to make a few smaller PCBs and make a "sandwich" of them ...

    zgierzman wrote:

    After the description "vacuum tubes, retro electronics" I guess you know what you see


    Nixie watch :)

    zgierzman wrote:
    In the 1980s, the Polish industry produced instruments on comparable elements and comparable functionality, which had dimensions of 35 cm x 25 cm x 10 cm, mine is 10 cm x 10 cm x 3 cm. The difference is in the THT / SMD technology.


    Those were different times, less advanced integrated circuits, problem with access to parts ...
    Here, not only THT / SMD technology has an impact.
    Of course, when using SMD, smaller dimensions can be achieved.

    Regards,
    AND.
  • #80
    zgierzman
    Level 29  
    We deviate from the topic of the thread, but let me make the last off-topic post:

    Olkus wrote:
    But simple circuits (like the one in the topic), I think there is no point in complicating the life of SMD, especially when it comes to a beginner's circuit.


    I do not agree with you.

    1)
    You have to start somewhere. If you don't get used to such simple circuits, you'll never get to the more complicated ones. I used to think "it's too small, special equipment is needed ...", but I started with simple things, and now QFN is not a big problem for me. As in my Raspberry the LAN scalak was fried, I replaced it myself without fear :-)

    2)
    This is not a complication, but a simplification. If only because there is no need to drill holes. Above I gave thru-hole potentiometers, but if you change them to SMD, you can forget about the existence of a drill. You take the plate out of etching and you can solder it right away.

    Olkus wrote:
    Nixie watch


    No, note that there are BCD to 7-segment decoders. In addition, there are 7 in the picture, in fact 10. But you're right, it has something to do with timing :-)
  • #81
    elektronik.b
    Level 3  
    Zgierzman cool You, this board came out when it comes to soldering smd elements, I just have no patience for that in my life, I soldered only two systems with smd elements, such as this one: https://www.gotronik.pl/equalizer-analizator-widma-akustycznego-8x8- led-p-4942.html and I was sitting on it for about 4 hours and the system worked, fortunately, and probably some impulse counter from the avt offer or something like that on attiny2313 but it did not work for me before starting the system, I made a short circuit on two legs scalaka and burned.
    As for the potentiometer, when I turn it, the sensitivity of the indicator changes, as well as in the case of the potentiometer inserted between the system and the audio signal supplied. And I redrawn it the same as in the original diagram, so there is probably no error.
  • #82
    398216 Usunięty
    Level 43  
    zgierzman wrote:
    Exactly why?
    And what does the dot mean in the diagram? Connection. So why is the red oval drawn fragment drawn so senselessly?
    A potentiometer is needed - this is not a problem. The only thing that worries me is the Author's answer:
    elektronik.b wrote:
    this potentiometer was already in this diagram from practical electronics so I put it.
    Copying a layout without thinking what is in it and what for. Another example - power supply. The diagram on which the Author was based was drawn (which is quite logical), but why copy it to the second tile? Wouldn't it be enough to route the power supply from one PCB, where the power supply is, to the other, where it is not? And why two tiles instead of one? Ultimately, it is intended for a specific application, application to a stereo indicator.
    Once again - I am not here to mock the ignorance of the slaughter = or the author of the topic - God forbid! Rather, it is about "forcing" (once again ...) independent THINKING.
    Because what, like what, but thinking (preferably logical) in the case of electronics is a matter of priority.
    elektronik.b wrote:
    in my life I sold only two systems with smd elements such as this one: https://www.gotronik.pl/equalizer-analizator-widma-akustycznego-8x8-led-p-4942.html and I was sitting on it for about 4 hours
    Nobody is saying that the skill will come by itself. "No work, no cakes" - the important thing is that you made it and you've gained some experience - and (I hope) learned some conclusions from it. As our "friends" say, "Tisze you go, further you go" - driving slowly and calmly you will get farther. The fact that it took you 4 hours proves that you are taking the matter seriously - I am sure that the next system in this technology will take you less, because you have already gained some experience.


    Coming back, if it is possible (?), To the tile design:
    I have the impression that you want to be successful too quickly. This is normal, but harmful; If you had a calm look at your project, you would find the errors I wrote about earlier. No wonder - experience plays the most important role in PCB design, as in any work. I went through it myself and I know that it is only the third or the next project that can be considered the best / most optimal. I have developed this method for myself: I make project "1", save it and come back to it the next day, with the intention of finding errors. Thanks to the day of rest, I have a slightly fresher look and it is easier for me to see what I did not notice before because I wanted to finish as soon as possible. The project "2" is created. Sometimes even after the "two" is finished, I can see that it will be necessary to make another version - sometimes just when correcting your own bugs you see more of them. So I suggest you calmly think "what did I do wrong", look for shorter connections, different positioning of the elements, simplify the diagram ... after some time you will get to such a practice that there will be definitely fewer errors and perhaps version "2" will be enough to consider the board as optimal and finished. However, you should never rush, rush causes you to make mistakes "out of laziness" - striving to finish the job as soon as possible.
    Good luck.
  • #83
    elektronik.b
    Level 3  
    Thanks for the good advice.

    Added after 4 [minutes]:

    I also made the second one after the first one. VU-dial indicator
  • #84
    Olkus
    Level 25  
    zgierzman wrote:
    You have to start somewhere. If you don't get used to such simple circuits, you'll never get to the more complicated ones. I used to think "it's too small, special equipment is needed ...", but I started with simple things, and now QFN is not a big problem for me. As in my Raspberry the LAN scalak was fried, I replaced it myself without fear


    Of course you have to start somewhere.
    In my opinion, the best to learn are boards from old electronic devices, it will not be a pity if you do.
    For me, it is too small, and I don't have a special SMD soldering iron. I try to avoid surface elements as much as possible and do not use them in my arrangements.
    But never say never :)

    zgierzman wrote:
    This is not a complication, but a simplification. If only because there is no need to drill holes. Above I gave thru-hole potentiometers, but if you change them to SMD, you can forget about the existence of a drill. You take the plate out of the etching and you can solder immediately


    On the one hand, yes, on the other hand, no. You do not need to drill holes, but we have tiny elements.
    When etching the plate, it is also easy to short-circuit between the pads, and as a result, the system does not work / damage.

    zgierzman wrote:
    No, note that there are BCD to 7-segment decoders. In addition, there are 7 in the picture, in fact 10. But you're right, it has something to do with timing


    Hmm ... Then I have a problem for the afternoon to find out what kind of device it is :)

    Regards,
    AND.
  • #85
    398216 Usunięty
    Level 43  
    Still a lot to improve. You don't have 207 standing resistors in the Component Library?
  • #86
    zgierzman
    Level 29  
    398216 Usunięty wrote:
    And what does the dot mean in the diagram? Connection. So why is the red oval drawn fragment drawn so senselessly?
    A potentiometer is needed


    You see, reread what you wrote earlier:

    398216 Usunięty wrote:
    And this potentiometer is for what purpose?
    (...)
    It's just that in such a connection as in the marked diagram it makes no sense - whether it is or not, the effect will be the same. Can you see why?


    You wrote that it will not work, or maybe it is even unnecessary. And he's just plain ugly, but correct. Electrically, I don't see any difference between the author's version and what was in the EP.

    VU-dial indicator
  • #87
    elektronik.b
    Level 3  
    398216 Usunięty wrote:
    Still a lot to improve. You don't have 207 standing resistors in the Component Library?


    I have such resistors.
  • #88
    olaf x
    Level 33  
    Such a small note regarding the design of the tile, sometimes it is more convenient to make one or two jumpers, instead you can pack the elements tighter and you do not have to "detour" half the tile along some paths. Even on the factory plates, there are jumpers, sometimes even quite a lot. Obviously, you shouldn't overuse it, but sometimes it is a simpler solution.
    And the elements themselves, such as the traditional resistor - if we do not care about the low height of the elements - it is sometimes worth installing not "flat", but vertically, so that the resistor on the board will take up less space. When there are more of them next to each other, it is worth threading a section of insulation on a longer leg, torn from a thicker cable with a stripper, then there will be no risk of shorting the elements together.
    I would like to add that even with a rather complicated board, I do not use any "programs" to draw a tile, but when I see a pile of collected elements and see their dimensions, I draw paths "by eye", according to the diagram, and then next versions with greater compaction of elements, until it can't be more tightened. Then this is the final version to be made. It does not take a long time, but the pleasure itself :)
  • #89
    398216 Usunięty
    Level 43  
    olaf x wrote:
    if you do not care about the low height of the elements - sometimes it is worth installing not "flat", but vertically, so that the resistor on the board will take up less space.
    This is exactly what I meant with R5. After switching the R5 and D4 vertically, we get much shorter and less bent paths. There would be a few more such places.
    olaf x wrote:
    sometimes it is more convenient to make one or two jumpers, instead you can pack the elements tighter and you do not have to "detour" half a tile along some paths.
    Agreement. Condition - the jumper must be placed so that it does not run under any element and it is best if it runs parallel to the edge of the board.
    olaf x wrote:
    I would like to add that even with a rather complicated board, I do not use any "programs" to draw a tile, but when I see a pile of collected elements and see their dimensions, I draw paths "by eye", according to the diagram, and then next versions with greater compaction of elements, until it can't be more tightened.
    Well, that's what I meant in post 82.
    zgierzman wrote:
    You wrote that it will not work, or maybe it is even unnecessary. And he's just plain ugly, but correct.
    In fact, I got a bit confused; and that's exactly what I meant in the case of board design - the diagram must be drawn CLEARLY. Some loops, leading paths only to stick them together later, not only that they make a mess, but also make it difficult to "read" such a sloppyly drawn diagram. But - cool ... This also has to be learned ... ;)
  • #90
    elektronik.b
    Level 3  
    olaf x wrote:
    Such a small note regarding the design of the tile, sometimes it is more convenient to make one or two jumpers, instead you can pack the elements tighter


    And how to make a jumper in kicad? because I read here on the forum and also on another that it is impossible to make a jumper in this program.